EU to increase budget by £7.4 billion

[Alan Fry]

Originally Posted by martyh

That is the problem .Trying to impose a "one size fits all" policy to 27 countries simply does not work and never will work .What you end up with is a hugely expensive bureaucracy that is incapable of doing anything in a reasonable time frame ,and when it does achieve something the result is so far removed from the original idea because of individual countries needs as to totally unrecognizable and pointless .You may want to consider that before embarking on any more of your world government fantasies

Hence why it would be better if they replaced it with a USE, the EU is nothing more than a halfway house that pleases no one a USE (and Global Government) would be far more effective

Originally Posted by Alan Fry

Look what happened when we vetoed something that had nothing to do with us!

Yeah ,pretty much sod all happened

[Ignitionnet]

Originally Posted by Alan Fry

If the UK left the EU (which we joined under a Tory government and was suggested by a Tory PM!), not only would we have to change our laws, but we would be isolated in Europe, it would pose diffculties with Northern Ireland, we would have to either join NAFTA or go it alone and anyway, what ever we do we will be ultimately under influence of China

Nonsense. We would most likely go straight into the EFTA, given that we're a net importer from Europe they wouldn't cut off trade with us nor could they.

Going it alone would be fine - we could, oh I don't know, get back to trading with the Anglosphere and the Commonwealth and former Commonwealth. Australia, Canada, etc, countries on their way up rather than being the world's retirement home, paying up former Eastern Bloc countries with pre-accession subsidies then transference of wealth to tap their younger populations for cheap labour.

Whether you or the Lib Dems or anyone else like it or not we're the 5th largest trading nation in the world. Free of the EU's trade tariffs we could grow trade with traditional partners.

China have considerable sway over the EU anyway, thanks in no small part to their pouring money into EU governments' bonds, in a similar manner to their potential influence over the USA.

The first sentence - no-one could care less who took us into the EU, and can I remind you that what we have right now bares little resemblance to the EEC or the Common Market, as sold to the people as a trade organisation, thanks to Lisbon and other agreements giving the EU and the invisible European Commission, the never directly elected body who in private decide on laws to be rubber stamped by the Parliament, control over several facets of our lives.

I have no idea why leaving the EU would have any impact on the UK's relationship with Ireland. If you're thinking of EU subsidies just think what we would do having our own waters back for UK fishermen, not handing billions over to the EU for foreign farming subsidies and payments to potential and current EU nations.

Please try again.

---------- Post added at 14:43 ---------- Previous post was at 14:42 ----------

Originally Posted by Alan Fry

Hence why it would be better if they replaced it with a USE, the EU is nothing more than a halfway house that pleases no one a USE (and Global Government) would be far more effective

Well if you want to see the UK become poorer then sure, because I can assure you that the GDP within the Eurozone is considerably below ours.

Can't think why, loss of flexibility in monetary policy and massive competitiveness gap in order to keep Germany's exports artificially cheap perhaps.

Originally Posted by Alan Fry

Hence why it would be better if they replaced it with a USE, the EU is nothing more than a halfway house that pleases no one a USE (and Global Government) would be far more effective

USE ????

United States of Earth ????

[Ignitionnet]

Originally Posted by Alan Fry

Are you suggesting that after sticking a middle finger to Mainland Europe, we can still have a close relationship with the EU?

Look what happened when we vetoed something that had nothing to do with us!

I don't want a close relationship with the EU, just one of open trade and movement of people - see Switzerland and Norway.

If you think that had nothing to do with us that just goes to show how seriously your opinions on this matter should be taken, and explains your Europhile nature to some extent. Nice and ignorant just as the Eurocrats would wish people to be.

All Cameron asked for was that the City of London not have a transactions tax put on it, this is absolutely appropriate given that over 80% of the tax Europe-wide would be paid by the UK, and Sweden also oppose such a financial transactions tax because they tried it and it absolutely devastated their financial sector.

FYI These are the European Commission's own numbers:

A long-run (20 year) reduction in gross domestic product in the EU by 0.53% if "mitigating effects" take hold, or up to 1.76 per cent if they don't

Yes, between 0.53% and 1.76% of the entire EU GDP, borne >80% by the UK for the next 20 years.

So the veto was because Cameron asked for protection from having the UK's GDP raped by the EU for a tax that they themselves admit will be economically harmful.

[Sirius]

Originally Posted by Alan Fry

For god sake for once can we have a day without EU-Bashing?

No why should we when they have failed in everything they do

I want nothing to do with Europe, I don't want there money, I don't want to pay into something we get naff all from and i will certainly vote aggressively against any expansion of the EU, So Alan stick that in your pipe and smoke it.

[Alan Fry]

Originally Posted by Ignitionnet

Nonsense. We would most likely go straight into the EFTA, given that we're a net importer from Europe they wouldn't cut off trade with us nor could they.

Going it alone would be fine - we could, oh I don't know, get back to trading with the Anglosphere and the Commonwealth and former Commonwealth. Australia, Canada, etc, countries on their way up rather than being the world's retirement home, paying up former Eastern Bloc countries with pre-accession subsidies then transference of wealth to tap their younger populations for cheap labour.

Whether you or the Lib Dems or anyone else like it or not we're the 5th largest trading nation in the world. Free of the EU's trade tariffs we could grow trade with traditional partners.

China have considerable sway over the EU anyway, thanks in no small part to their pouring money into EU governments' bonds, in a similar manner to their potential influence over the USA.

The first sentence - no-one could care less who took us into the EU, and can I remind you that what we have right now bares little resemblance to the EEC or the Common Market, as sold to the people as a trade organisation, thanks to Lisbon and other agreements giving the EU and the invisible European Commission, the never directly elected body who in private decide on laws to be rubber stamped by the Parliament, control over several facets of our lives.

I have no idea why leaving the EU would have any impact on the UK's relationship with Ireland. If you're thinking of EU subsidies just think what we would do having our own waters back for UK fishermen, not handing billions over to the EU for foreign farming subsidies and payments to potential and current EU nations.

Please try again.

---------- Post added at 14:43 ---------- Previous post was at 14:42 ----------



Well if you want to see the UK become poorer then sure, because I can assure you that the GDP within the Eurozone is considerably below ours.

Can't think why, loss of flexibility in monetary policy and massive competitiveness gap in order to keep Germany's exports artificially cheap perhaps.

Let me put it this way, if we are going to leave, it’s going to be rather bitter and I do not think we would be on rather friendly terms to join the EEFA, they are not exactly going to cut trade with us, but it would be harder and less friendly

My point about China is that no matter what we do, we would be under influence from China, so if we don’t want be under anyone’s influence, then don’t bother leaving

Anyway, if you want to create a Commonwealth Economic Area (which is a good idea), then that has to include open borders with all those states (which is a good idea), but these days many of them do not really care much about the UK, Just ask the Indians, Canadians and Australians!

And for god sake, don’t associate me with a shameful party like the Lib Dems
Lastly we did joined the EEC, we knew that it would lead to a USE, after all a TORY PM Winston Churchill said “We need a United States of Europe� (Remember the Tories help create the ECHE, just ask Andrew Neil)

As for Ireland, if we leaving the EU (unless Ireland joins us) would mean there would be border controls on the NI/Eire border, also it would enviably reduce ties and Nationalists (who want a United Ireland) would worry about how it affects NI links with Eire

Then there are the people who receive EU subsidiaries…

By the way we have flexibility in monetary policy, we are not in the Euro

---------- Post added at 15:13 ---------- Previous post was at 15:13 ----------

Originally Posted by martyh

USE ????

United States of Earth ????

United States of Europe

---------- Post added at 15:17 ---------- Previous post was at 15:13 ----------

Originally Posted by Ignitionnet

I don't want a close relationship with the EU, just one of open trade and movement of people - see Switzerland and Norway.

If you think that had nothing to do with us that just goes to show how seriously your opinions on this matter should be taken, and explains your Europhile nature to some extent. Nice and ignorant just as the Eurocrats would wish people to be.

All Cameron asked for was that the City of London not have a transactions tax put on it, this is absolutely appropriate given that over 80% of the tax Europe-wide would be paid by the UK, and Sweden also oppose such a financial transactions tax because they tried it and it absolutely devastated their financial sector.

FYI These are the European Commission's own numbers:

A long-run (20 year) reduction in gross domestic product in the EU by 0.53% if "mitigating effects" take hold, or up to 1.76 per cent if they don't

Yes, between 0.53% and 1.76% of the entire EU GDP, borne >80% by the UK for the next 20 years.

So the veto was because Cameron asked for protection from having the UK's GDP raped by the EU for a tax that they themselves admit will be economically harmful.

I know the reasons why we did veto, what was proposed was aimed at the Euro Zone, we should have allied with Sweden and demanded the exception, I was showing an example of what happens when we fall out with Europe

---------- Post added at 15:18 ---------- Previous post was at 15:17 ----------

Originally Posted by Sirius

No why should we when they have failed in everything they do

I want nothing to do with Europe, I don't want there money, I don't want to pay into something we get naff all from and i will certainly vote aggressively against any expansion of the EU, So Alan stick that in your pipe and smoke it.

So you want to leave Mainland Europe under German control and us under even stonger USA/China control, we should insted demand more off the EU

Originally Posted by Alan Fry

United States of Europe

well it is quite difficult to know what your on about ,because as far as i know there is no United States of Europe ....officially

[Alan Fry]

Originally Posted by martyh

well it is quite difficult to know what your on about ,because as far as i know there is no United States of Europe ....officially

That concept has been around for a very long time...

Originally Posted by Alan Fry

That concept has been around for a very long time...

Yes Alan ,in hypothetical scenarios and fantasy books ,which is where it should remain

[denphone]

Originally Posted by Alan Fry

That concept has been around for a very long time...

But only in your mind dear Alan.

A very telling quote from the Telegraph article:

One director grade official in the European civil service revealed that EU departments have been pressured to increase their budget forecasts in order to "bump up" Brussels expenditure.
"There are people in the Commission who are like the Taliban, they are fundamentalists who believe as an article of faith that the EU's expenditure must increase every year even during a crisis," he said.

These fundamentalist Eurocrats are hell-bent on increasing the overall proportion of tax revenues that are controlled at the EU level rather than by member states. Their aim is to gradually bring about a de facto United States of Europe with the Commission acting as a federal government.

Why won't the member states ,or at least some of them just tell Brussels they won't get it ?.Surely the governments of the member states can see how this will inflame the electorate ,Greece for example has had to endure far greater cut backs than us ,how will their electorate react .

Sarko has made EU budget restraint a central plank of his re-election campaign. *If* the UK and France both stand up and say no, then we might see the Commission reigning its plans in a bit, but I don't know about an actual freeze.

Sadly I don't think there is anyone on either front bench in the Commons with the 'nads to flat refuse to increase our contributions.

[Ignitionnet]

Originally Posted by Alan Fry

Let me put it this way, if we are going to leave, it’s going to be rather bitter and I do not think we would be on rather friendly terms to join the EEFA, they are not exactly going to cut trade with us, but it would be harder and less friendly

So what? They'll still want the trade, and we can even give them a transitional period where we'll continue to subsidise French farming and allow Spanish fishermen in our sovereign territorial waters.

I'm sure you think of this as being a sudden and violent thing, it wouldn't be, it would have a long transitional period during which the UK makes its required bilateral agreements with the EU and takes its place in the EFTA.

Originally Posted by Alan Fry

My point about China is that no matter what we do, we would be under influence from China, so if we don’t want be under anyone’s influence, then don’t bother leaving

This makes no sense. It's one thing having trade influenced by a strong third party, quite another being under the level of influence that the EU have over us. Their influence is pervasive.

Originally Posted by Alan Fry

Anyway, if you want to create a Commonwealth Economic Area (which is a good idea), then that has to include open borders with all those states (which is a good idea), but these days many of them do not really care much about the UK, Just ask the Indians, Canadians and Australians!

No it doesn't have to include open borders. Free trade of goods and services doesn't require free movement of people.

Originally Posted by Alan Fry

And for god sake, don’t associate me with a shameful party like the Lib Dems
Lastly we did joined the EEC, we knew that it would lead to a USE, after all a TORY PM Winston Churchill said “We need a United States of Europe� (Remember the Tories help create the ECHE, just ask Andrew Neil)

The people who voted in the referendum would've probably quite liked to have known this given they were told they were voting on a common market. I'm also amused you keep referring to the Tories. This isn't a party political issue, it's way beyond the pathetic politics of Westminster.

Originally Posted by Alan Fry

As for Ireland, if we leaving the EU (unless Ireland joins us) would mean there would be border controls on the NI/Eire border, also it would enviably reduce ties and Nationalists (who want a United Ireland) would worry about how it affects NI links with Eire

Not really, perfectly possible for Ireland and Northern Ireland to form bilateral agreement.

Originally Posted by Alan Fry

Then there are the people who receive EU subsidiaries…

Given we're by a mile a net contributor to the EU budget this is easily mitigated by offering an equivalent to the EU subsidies (not subsidiaries) as a transitional point.

Removing the restrictions applied by the CAP will change our food supply in some ways, sure, however again there is no reason why we can't if so inclined, subsidise sectors of our farming sector with the money we save by not paying part of the cost for Spanish bridges or Polish metro systems.

Originally Posted by Alan Fry

By the way we have flexibility in monetary policy, we are not in the Euro

Indeed, part of the reason our per-capita GDP is higher than that of the Eurozone, which was my point.

Originally Posted by Alan Fry

I know the reasons why we did veto, what was proposed was aimed at the Euro Zone, we should have allied with Sweden and demanded the exception, I was showing an example of what happens when we fall out with Europe

Not an option, Sweden had already urinated away their financial services sector with their attempt at it so very little harm left for an FTT to do to them.

Originally Posted by Alan Fry

So you want to leave Mainland Europe under German control and us under even stonger USA/China control, we should insted demand more off the EU

I couldn't care less what mainland Europe is doing if we're out of the EU, we would weaken any single other country's influence on us considerably by having a more diverse trading base as we can again return to the WTO table ourselves rather than having the EU there on our behalf tending to the interests of the entire EU rather than the UK specifically.