papers tomorrow Coalition roads motorways and trunk roads to be leased+tolls

[joglynne]

I can't see a problem with this as long as controls are put in place to ensure that the companies who are involved are kept under strong scrutiny to ensure that they do not merely view the process as a way to create lucrative Cash Cows rather than decent roads.

Originally Posted by Osem

You don't really expect a coherent answer to that question do you?

Nope ,i'm getting used to certain posters posting garbage about government ideas simply because they are government ideas .Wait till AF wakes up and his butler reads the papers to him he's gonna have a fit

[mertle]

Originally Posted by martyh

Of course not, they would sooner whinge and whine about lack of infrastructure ,the state of the roads and the lack of action from the government .Personally i think it is a very workeable idea ,it's something that should have been done years ago

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It will

we pay enough martyh if they USED EVERY PENNY in the first place not PUT DOWN RUBBISH and PROPER tarmac the roads would been FINE. Governments down the years they are the ones raped the motorist dry nicked the money for god KNOWS now say MOTORIST got pay more.

So WHEN FOOD other things GO up DONT whinge as you support this stupid ideolgy

Originally Posted by mertle

we pay enough martyh if they USED EVERY PENNY in the first place not PUT DOWN RUBBISH and PROPER tarmac the roads would been FINE. Governments down the years they are the ones raped the motorist dry nicked the money for god KNOWS now say MOTORIST got pay more.

So WHEN FOOD other things GO up DONT whinge as you support this stupid ideolgy

You seem to be under the mis aprehension that the road tax you pay all goes on the roads ,it doesn't ,it goes into the central pot of taxes and allocated from there .If the government used only revenue from road tax we wouldn't have any decent roads at all as there is nowhere near enough money raised from road tax to cover the cost of running our road network .If you object to paying tolls on roads then don't use them

[MovedGoalPosts]

It is disconcerting how the answer to so many issues of government appears to be with the private sector. If the private sector can make it's money and thus profit, for less than the public sector spends this suggests some incredible waste and inefficiency in the public sector, especially as you can bet there would still be a civil servant or two sitting in an ivory tower somewhere to monitor the private sector's performance, adding back to the "saved cost". One has to wonder if there is a better way to get around the vested interests of the public sector and it's unions?

As for roads, if something is a genuinely new scheme then perhaps a toll might be appropriate. It has after all allowed things like the M6 relief road to be built near Birmingham. But any upgrade to existing routes should be ruled out. As is said above the British motorist is heavily taxed, that should be more than sufficient to cover all transportation systems. If it isn't then somebody somewhere should be ashamed of their waste.

[mertle]

Originally Posted by heero_yuy

I have no problems with private companies building new roads and then charging tolls on them. Where things become a bit more murky is on existing roads: If the legislation isn't vary carefully drafted we could see a private company bung a few extra signs or white paint on an existing road, call it an "upgrade" and then charge the hard pressed motorist extra for driving on a road that they already funded.

BINGO nail on head.

I would go as far saying this soon they place tarmac down its there road. They going to want it repaid back somehow.

Accident on road told to use new road or slip road due to said accident by police. Bill in post becaues you used THERE TOLL road. It will happen. Would not suprised damage there road in accident bill for said road repairs.

Originally Posted by Rob

It is disconcerting how the answer to so many issues of government appears to be with the private sector.

Not really ,profit in business is created by efficiency ,government run services like the road network are "not for profit" ventures .If this happens then i bet you won't see a forest of cones on a toll road on bank holidays ,you will see a increase in night time works ,we may even get the A1 dueled all the way to scotland currently scrapped by central government due to cost but a private company would make a killing

[mertle]

Originally Posted by martyh

You seem to be under the mis aprehension that the road tax you pay all goes on the roads ,it doesn't ,it goes into the central pot of taxes and allocated from there .If the government used only revenue from road tax we wouldn't have any decent roads at all as there is nowhere near enough money raised from road tax to cover the cost of running our road network .If you object to paying tolls on roads then don't use them

Well it should the governments only got this mess themselves to blame for underfunded repairs.

If they done proper job since the last cuts in repairs roads would be fine. Most time they put cheap stonechip down then miffed why six months it ruts half chips on wheels around the place cut people smashed windows chipped paint. Six months another gang do another job another cheap surface down which they prey lasts little longer.

You would be suprised how much is wasted not doing proper job in first place. Lost count some our roads have had to be replaced 2 to 3 times in 10 years some last 6 months due to bodging due to underfunding.

If we threw the right funds in first place they would last as long the original roads. Only reason why potholes occur is poor road management. See crack repair it dont let it get worse. Another is they repair little 1 metre squares which weake the road integrity. Often seen repairs where they not been rolled properly not even edged them which means they will chip and crumble.

Go out see the shocking workmanship at times road sunk slight they dont put new under surface to build it up again. I blame bosses they give them short timeframes to do the job result not done adequately.

If they do good job road should last years again. Too many cutting corners done this from underfunding not done properly not rolled properly even forgetting or not edging making sure surface is not sunk causing dips.

Originally Posted by mertle

Well it should the governments only got this mess themselves to blame for underfunded repairs.

.

The road fund licence has not covered the cost of building/maintaining roads since the 1930's .

[mertle]

Another reason why to be very concerned M6 has already got HUGE issues.

M6 debt already causing concern this next to second largest city. There simply not enough USING it causing concerns of low yields this road already worrying investors.

Take look at this evidence this will be financial nightmare. Santander, credit acricole and banco espirito are all looking to bail. They already want to sell the debt to some lemon out there. No doubt the lemon will be the uk tax payer. Why its already happened with another debt road toll failure.

http://www.ft.com/cms/s/0/d0d22e02-d...44feabdc0.html

It happened with humber bridge the debt could never be paid off tolls was spiralling simply due to lack numbers using it.

So the government bought half the debt of the bridge board reduced tolls by half. To hope more use the bridge to turn things around.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-humber-16955516

Now if this will happen down the road as companies make killing by running debt building the thing. Struggle to surface the debt and make enough from tolls/charges. Then down the road the serviving government will have to bail the road infrastructure out by buying the debt.

This could HAUNT US further down the road.

It so obvious as its already looking M6 heading the same way the government already doing this with humber bridge.

[Sirius]

Originally Posted by martyh

If you actually read the stories you have linked to you would realise that this will only apply to new roads or motorways built not existing ones ,so if you don't want to pay the toll use a non tolled road ,it's quite clear in the Daily Mail link you supplied

Read the stories, come on if those paper's have pictures

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Originally Posted by mertle

Another reason why to be very concerned M6 has already got HUGE issues.

M6 debt already causing concern this next to second largest city. There simply not enough USING it causing concerns of low yields this road already worrying investors.

.

I no longer use it because it costs FAR to much.

Originally Posted by mertle

Another reason why to be very concerned M6 has already got HUGE issues.

M6 debt already causing concern this next to second largest city. There simply not enough USING it causing concerns of low yields this road already worrying investors.

Take look at this evidence this will be financial nightmare. Santander, credit acricole and banco espirito are all looking to bail. They already want to sell the debt to some lemon out there. No doubt the lemon will be the uk tax payer. Why its already happened with another debt road toll failure.

http://www.ft.com/cms/s/0/d0d22e02-d...44feabdc0.html

It happened with humber bridge the debt could never be paid off tolls was spiralling simply due to lack numbers using it.

So the government bought half the debt of the bridge board reduced tolls by half. To hope more use the bridge to turn things around.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-humber-16955516

Now if this will happen down the road as companies make killing by running debt building the thing. Struggle to surface the debt and make enough from tolls/charges. Then down the road the serviving government will have to bail the road infrastructure out by buying the debt.

This could HAUNT US further down the road.

It so obvious as its already looking M6 heading the same way the government already doing this with humber bridge.

You would be daft ever to use the M6 Toll unless it was somehow unavoidable - I only used it once, to visit family who lived right next to one of its exits. It was late at night and I had a car load of sleepy children. Otherwise I'd have taken my chances with the surrounding A roads.

For longer journeys I traverse between the M6 and the M1 using the A50 between Stoke and Derby or just take a punt on the M6 through Birmingham.

For all these reasons the M6 Toll was doomed from day one. We must either have a comprehensive route network of tolled motorways - with mile-for-mile costs similar to those in Europe and not the eye-watering levy imposed on the M6 Toll - or no toll roads at all. One easily-bypassed toll road is pointless.

Personally I'm against toll roads. The amount of travelling people can do is already heavily restricted by taxation on fuel and VED. However I note that today's feverish Press coverage does not report that we are poised to get a toll network, simply that private companies might be allowed to manage our roads and earn incentives, paid by the treasury, if they are good at it.

[Taf]

Who will pay for the land?

Originally Posted by Sirius

Read the stories, come on if those paper's have pictures

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I no longer use it because it costs FAR to much.

The problem with the M6 toll road is that it is only realy effective during rush hours if you want to by pass birmingham ,any other time it doesn't really provide any time saving for the cost and couple that with the huge increase of traffic on other roads as road users use them instead because of financial reasons and the road rapidly becomes unprofitable .

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Originally Posted by heero_yuy

Wiki


Roads budget is in the region of £9b annually, however if one adds in the huge amount of revenue contributed by VAT and fuel duties, (ours are the highest in Europe) on transport together with other levies and taxes then there is more than enough, IIRC the last estimate for all revenues on road transport was about £50b

I seem to remember a certain TB saying we motorists had to contribute our road/transport taxes to keep the NHS afloat.

That's my point ,simply using VED to raise money for roads as was the original intention ,would be nowhere near enough IIRC VED only raises 5-6 billion and that is put in the general tax pot not ring fenced for road use only ,that's why fuel tax is there ,to offset the shortfall in VED .We also need the excess taxes raised from road taxes to fund things like the NHS and welfare so the only way to build new roads or properly maintain roads is to take money from those services or raise taxes in general ,or build toll roads

[mertle]

Originally Posted by heero_yuy

Wiki


Roads budget is in the region of £9b annually, however if one adds in the huge amount of revenue contributed by VAT and fuel duties, (ours are the highest in Europe) on transport together with other levies and taxes then there is more than enough, IIRC the last estimate for all revenues on road transport was about £50b

I seem to remember a certain TB saying we motorists had to contribute our road/transport taxes to keep the NHS afloat.

indeed coupled with the how shocking our road repairs system is I am sure those costs could be reduced with doing proper job in first place. companies not working together like new road gets laid weeks later the usual gas, cable, electric, water company digs the bloomin thing up leaves it in shocking state.

Coupled with years mis managed councils like ours had budget for road repairs which was going to taken at end april if not used. So waste it on crazy traffic carming cycle schemes . One has cycle track which if cyclist adhere to would hit the trees as they slap in them. Also dig up perfectly good roads just because you running out time even when others needed it first. Our council done this stupid trick for years then moan when side streets in desperate repair.

We found money to reduce all the roads in towns 20mph planned traffic carming measures yet wont repair roads in disrepair.