Proposal for the Reformation of the EU Migrant Labour within the United Kingdom

Originally Posted by Cerrone

I answered it.. didnt i?



The principles of "employment" are the same whether it was 35 or 35,000 years ago. A nation relying on outside labour at the expense of its own citizens will cause nothing but poverty in it's citizens. Examine any nation in what ever time period you like, and you'll find that to be true.

I did the same thing and that's how I found the Mark Antony solution. Don't get me wrong, there may be short term benefits for a handful of people as there have been, but the vast majority of citizens who're denied jobs will deteriorate rapidly, and its unnessecary.

No. They are not the same and you cannot compare modern day Britain to the Roman Empire. For a start the level of expertise required has grown, there are a lot of jobs which require high levels of training and education and not enough people with the requisite skills in this country.

[TheDaddy]

Originally Posted by Damien

You do understand a lot of jobs require knowledge, skills and training? Not every job can be done by a random person.

and you do understand that a lot of jobs migrants are doing dont require any skills other than saying ''do you want fries with that''. For every skilled European here there are loads more Central Europeans working in factories, waiting on tables, cleaning and picking fruit. That is what wants reforming imo.

Originally Posted by TheDaddy

and you do understand that a lot of jobs migrants are doing dont require any skills other than saying ''do you want fries with that''. For every skilled European here there are loads more Central Europeans working in factories, waiting on tables, cleaning and picking fruit. That is what wants reforming imo.

Do you really think that the ordinary indigenous and local born want those jobs at the wages being offered?

[Cerrone]

No. They are not the same and you cannot compare modern day Britain to the Roman Empire. For a start the level of expertise required has grown, there are a lot of jobs which require high levels of training and education and not enough people with the requisite skills in this country.

No, the principles remain exactly the same, regardless of disposable slaves in the Roman Empire hauling timber or disposable migrants in Essex answering phones in a call centre.

Originally Posted by TheDaddy

and you do understand that a lot of jobs migrants are doing dont require any skills other than saying ''do you want fries with that''. For every skilled European here there are loads more Central Europeans working in factories, waiting on tables, cleaning and picking fruit. That is what wants reforming imo.

And that is very true. The statistics are right in front of you, next time you're in your town centre count how many indigenous brits you see behind the counters or waiting tables. Is there is a reason 2/3's of those jobs couldn't be handled effectively by british citizens? Or is there a reason a british citizen can't train to learn to handle any other job currently filled by a migrant worker regardless of the skills involved?

[TheDaddy]

Originally Posted by Maggy J

Do you really think that the ordinary indigenous and local born want those jobs at the wages being offered?

Perhaps if there weren't so many people avaliable to do jobs for minimum wage the wages would increase to living wage level, my friend lives abroad half the year and works hard here the rest of the year, ten years ago most factory/agency work he did paid £6 an hourish now it's all minimum wage, that's a moot point anyway considering our coalition governments desire to get people in any avaliable work.

[Ignitionnet]

Originally Posted by Cerrone

And that is very true. The statistics are right in front of you, next time you're in your town centre count how many indigenous brits you see behind the counters or waiting tables. Is there is a reason 2/3's of those jobs couldn't be handled effectively by british citizens? Or is there a reason a british citizen can't train to learn to handle any other job currently filled by a migrant worker regardless of the skills involved?

No reason at all beyond that British citizens apparently refuse to work for the salaries offered and would rather live on welfare.

---------- Post added at 16:27 ---------- Previous post was at 16:26 ----------

Originally Posted by TheDaddy

Perhaps if there weren't so many people avaliable to do jobs for minimum wage the wages would increase to living wage level, my friend lives abroad half the year and works hard here the rest of the year, ten years ago most factory/agency work he did paid £6 an hourish now it's all minimum wage, that's a moot point anyway considering our coalition governments desire to get people in any avaliable work.

Wanting companies to pay more means people paying more for products means demand for higher wages.

I believe we tried that about 30 years ago. Didn't go too well as I have read and destroyed manufacturing within the UK, even though to half the population blaming Thatcher is far more convenient an excuse than unions demanding higher wage settlements and manufacturing jobs being exported to China.

Originally Posted by Cerrone

I answered it.. didnt i?

No, you didn't - you gave a rhetorical question as your answer.

How did we manage before the EU? We managed and we're perfectly capable of doing it again

Originally Posted by Cerrone

The principles of "employment" are the same whether it was 35 or 35,000 years ago. A nation relying on outside labour at the expense of its own citizens will cause nothing but poverty in it's citizens. Examine any nation in what ever time period you like, and you'll find that to be true.

I did the same thing and that's how I found the Mark Antony solution. Don't get me wrong, there may be short term benefits for a handful of people as there have been, but the vast majority of citizens who're denied jobs will deteriorate rapidly, and its unnessecary.

I disagree with you - the principles of employment (with or without the quotes) are not the same; we are now, as a nation, in a service/knowledge economy (as we cannot compete on price on mass-manufacturing, only in niche), so if we wish to implement your suggestion (2/3rds of all employees in a business must be British Citizens), what do we do in the meantime whilst we train up (and they gain experience) the BC's in the knowledge and skills required (for instance, in IT, you can pass MCSE (or whatever it's called now) in a couple of months, but you need a couple of years experience to be really adding value (and a return on the investment in training)).

So I ask again - what do we do whilst the BC's are gaining this knowledge and skills?

[TheDaddy]

Originally Posted by Ignitionnet

Wanting companies to pay more means people paying more for products means demand for higher wages.

I believe we tried that about 30 years ago. Didn't go too well as I have read and destroyed manufacturing within the UK, even though to half the population blaming Thatcher is far more convenient an excuse than unions demanding higher wage settlements and manufacturing jobs being exported to China.

Some how I doubt paying people a living wage will result in anything other than firms making a few quid less after all I seem to remember the Tory opposition screaming we'd lose jobs to China etc when the minimum wage was brought in

Originally Posted by Cerrone

Yeah i'm well aware libcom deleted it within two hours. So much for "liberal community" eh?

(or libertarian/indie manchilds, whatever they are)

I'm posting here because I did a search for "unemployed" and "forum" so i could get this seen by the people directly affected by the government policy and i found this forum as one of the top ones that came up.

I assume there're unemployed people here who'd be interested in it, no?

Unemployed or not ... that fact you're sticking around to take part in the discussion rather than simply spamming us is good enough for this admin.

[Ignitionnet]

Originally Posted by TheDaddy

Some how I doubt paying people a living wage will result in anything other than firms making a few quid less after all I seem to remember the Tory opposition screaming we'd lose jobs to China etc when the minimum wage was brought in

Yep and they were wrong, in no small part because relatively few people had their wages go up as far as I'm aware. A 'living wage' would cause huge inflation, far wiser to raise the tax allowance as they are doing so that people at the lower end of the income scale keep more of their money and ensure the welfare system incentivises work.

[TheDaddy]

Originally Posted by Ignitionnet

Yep and they were wrong, in no small part because relatively few people had their wages go up as far as I'm aware. A 'living wage' would cause huge inflation, far wiser to raise the tax allowance as they are doing so that people at the lower end of the income scale keep more of their money and ensure the welfare system incentivises work.

Err no it wouldn't, the living wage in London is about £2 an hour more than the minimum wage, even less in other parts of the country, if our economy is in such a state that paying people £14-24 a day more is going to cripple us we might as well give up now.

[Ignitionnet]

Originally Posted by TheDaddy

Err no it wouldn't, the living wage in London is about £2 an hour more than the minimum wage, even less in other parts of the country, if our economy is in such a state that paying people £14-24 a day more is going to cripple us we might as well give up now.

So long as it came with a commensurate withdrawal of housing benefit and other welfare to an equivalent amount I wouldn't have a problem with that at all.

Of course that wouldn't leave the people who receive the wage any better off.

Originally Posted by Cerrone

To the People of Great Britain,

As we are all painfully aware the situation of high unemployment and preference of government and business owners in hiring and providing employment to migrant workers over that of existing British citizens has reached a crisis point and given the policies of previous and current government, there is going to be no end to the problems faced nationally by the citizen workers of today and by the students who will enter the labour market themselves tomorrow.
.

I'm not sure that it is a preference ,more of a necessity,one of the companies i subcontract to needed to start a night shift making windows and doors out of the 38 night shift staff i think there are only about 5 british workers as not many british workers applied .The migrant workers get paid the same as the British workers ,cos it's the law ,the only preference given to migrant workers as far as i know is because they usually have a better work ethic

As long as current government allows their policies to be dictated by the short sighted greed of their financial backers in the upper echelons of the corporate and financial sectors, the United Kingdom will find itself not only faced with mass unemployment but with long term poverty and a decline of the very quality of life itself for the people of our country.

you do realise that the company owners need workers ,skilled or otherwise to reach the upper echelons don't you and having owners of major companies in britain tell the government what needs doing ,or "dictating policy" isn't necessarily a bad thing ,sometimes the big bosses do actually know better than the government ,because as i said they need a workforce to earn their millions

It is no secret that businesses can turn a quick profit on the rotation of migrant workers from the European Union to fill their ranks with temporary workers who may only last a few months before they leave the country and the job and can be replaced instantly with another migrant worker; meaning that no worker stays in a job long enough to assert union rights or to climb the promotions ladder to become a business owner themselves.

That works both ways , British citizens can and do go abroard to work seasonaly ,i remember the hoards of British workers working in europe in the 80's ,a close friend of mine worked in germany for 5 years on and off and earned enough money to start his own bricklaying company in the uk.On the sites i work on there were a lot of polish workers who did the work that British workers couldn't/wouldn't do in the timescale required because it would mean working long hours in the summer ,it wasn't unusual to see polish plasterers rendering the houses untill it got dark ,aginst H&S a lot of it but that's a different argument

It is no surprise then that my solution to the crisis we are facing is to do exactly the same thing. I propose that in fact, two thirds of all workers within every single place of employment within the United Kingdom MUST be British citizens and long term residents within this country. If a place of business has three employees, then two of them must be British citizens, if the business has three thousand, then two thousand must be British citizens, with the remaining placements being permissible for migrant labour.

How long is long term?
what happens if a company cannot get British citizens to do the job?

I used to have a similar outlook towards migrant workers as you do but having worked alongside them i find them more profitable to me ,better workers ,and quite a lot of fun ,better than listening to British workers winging they haven't had the 10oclock tea break

[TheDaddy]

Originally Posted by Ignitionnet

So long as it came with a commensurate withdrawal of housing benefit and other welfare to an equivalent amount I wouldn't have a problem with that at all.

Of course that wouldn't leave the people who receive the wage any better off.

Imo that would be the idea, to get people out of the benefits cycle and if firms are genuinly feeling the pinch because of it let the firm claim back cash from government to subsidise it not the worker.

As for housing benefit withdrawal I can see rents coming down anyway, our housing bubble is being kept afloat by migrants buying and housing benefit paying rent, now the migrants aren't so keen to come and the government is no longer as keen to pay buy to let landlords mortgages the only way is down and if all else fails would it really be so bad to reintroduce the fair rent act?

[Ignitionnet]

Originally Posted by TheDaddy

Imo that would be the idea, to get people out of the benefits cycle and if firms are genuinly feeling the pinch because of it let the firm claim back cash from government to subsidise it not the worker.

That just moves the welfare from individuals to companies, it's not the government's job to prop companies feeling the pinch up if they are being forced to pay higher salaries. If companies feel the pinch they can either reduce costs or raise prices. One is inflationary the other causes increased unemployment. Ideally neither would happen.

It's rather a socialist point of view advocating that companies pay higher wages using government subsidy don't you think? Companies will inevitably look for ways to get at those subsidies.

If we want people off welfare the most viable way would probably be ensuring that working people are always noticeably better off than those on welfare. Tax reductions and graduated welfare withdrawal strike me as better options than corporate subsidy.

Originally Posted by TheDaddy

As for housing benefit withdrawal I can see rents coming down anyway, our housing bubble is being kept afloat by migrants buying and housing benefit paying rent, now the migrants aren't so keen to come and the government is no longer as keen to pay buy to let landlords mortgages the only way is down and if all else fails would it really be so bad to reintroduce the fair rent act?

Yep I'm thinking they'll come down in some areas too, mine not being one of them sadly!