Back to the 1970s?

[ashgray]

Originally Posted by Osem

The unions have done a great deal for working people since their creation. In some cases they've also handled things very badly and done a grave dis-service to those very same people. Lets not forget also that those who suffer from strikes tend to be entirely innocent - the worst suffering normally being the poor, the vulnerable and those in greatest need. I find that hard to swallow.

Have you ever stood on a picket line watching the non strikers going into work knowing that after all the strikers sacrifices the non strikers will benefit from the actions of the strikers.
maybe if you had you would then realise why feelings run high towards strike breakers.

But non-striking workers don't ask the strikers to make sacrifices on their behalf. If someone wants to go on strike then fine, so long as they do it within the law. But they shouldn't think they automatically deserve support, gratitude or obligation from people who exercise their legal, democratic right not to go on strike.

[Osem]

Originally Posted by ashgray

Have you ever stood on a picket line watching the non strikers going into work knowing that after all the strikers sacrifices the non strikers will benefit from the actions of the strikers.
maybe if you had you would then realise why feelings run high towards strike breakers.

I thought I'd made that point clear already. Having lived through the miners' strikes I can fully understand that feelings run high but that does not excuse aggressive intimidation or violence. How would you feel about a large group of workers vehemently opposed to any such action resorting to that sort of behaviour with a group of strikers?

My feelings run high over all sorts of issues but that doesn't entitle me to aggressively bully/intimidate others whose views differ from mine.

[ashgray]

Originally Posted by Chris

But non-striking workers don't ask the strikers to make sacrifices on their behalf. If someone wants to go on strike then fine, so long as they do it within the law. But they shouldn't think they automatically deserve support, gratitude or obligation from people who exercise their legal, democratic right not to go on strike.

Maybe not but if the strikers get a wage rise you can bet your life the people who didn't go on strike will want there pay to rise to.
Sorry but i've no time for strike breakers.perhaps its because i am a trade union supporter who as stood on the picket line and proudly supported the miners when they were on strike.

Originally Posted by ashgray

Sorry but i've no time for strike breakers.

That's your prerogative. But you can only hold that view because you (incorrectly) believe that everyone else is somehow obliged to follow you out to the picket line. They aren't. They have democratic rights the same as you do.

If a few more of your union bretheren had borne that in mind, then perhaps fewer people would have been injured or killed during the worst strikes of the 1970s and 80s.

[LondonRoad]

Originally Posted by Osem

The unions have done a great deal for working people since their creation. In some cases they've also handled things very badly and done a grave dis-service to those very same people. Lets not forget also that those who suffer from strikes tend to be entirely innocent - the worst suffering normally being the poor, the vulnerable and those in greatest need. I find that hard to swallow.

....and the press will portray the strikers as being heartless and uncaring when it is in fact those same people who continually go above and beyond the call of duty to care and tend for the poor, the vulnerable and those in greatest need.

Modern day strikes aren't caused solely by trade unionists for political ends. The vast majority of strikes are as a result of a breakdown in negotiations. The people who don't work at the front line are every bit of culpable for allowing strikes to happen than those who have to make the sacrifice of withdrawing their labour.... but that doesn't make as good reading in the right wing press.

[ashgray]

Originally Posted by Osem

I thought I'd made that point clear already. Having lived through the miners' strikes I can fully understand that feelings run high but that does not excuse aggressive intimidation or violence. How would you feel about a large group of workers vehemently opposed to any such action resorting to that sort of behaviour with a group of strikers?

My feelings run high over all sorts of issues but that doesn't entitle me to aggressively bully/intimidate others whose views differ from mine.

yes but you have the attitude of a boss,i have the attitude of a common working man,i was brought up to believe in the power of the unions.
it is the strike breakers that undermine the power of the unions what are the strikers supposed to do stand on the picket line and beg the strike breakers not to go into to work.
I'm sorry but its a rough old world old world out there and sometimes you have to fight and get rough and in my opinion if you strike break you are the lowest of the low and are fair game.
As i said your a boss i'm a worker you wouldn't understand.

---------- Post added at 12:28 ---------- Previous post was at 12:22 ----------

Originally Posted by Chris

That's your prerogative. But you can only hold that view because you (incorrectly) believe that everyone else is somehow obliged to follow you out to the picket line. They aren't. They have democratic rights the same as you do.

If a few more of your union bretheren had borne that in mind, then perhaps fewer people would have been injured or killed during the worst strikes of the 1970s and 80s.

Please enlighten me how many people died or were injured during the strikes of the seventies with proof please.
oh yes and i do know of the taxi driver that died during the miners strike and i don't condone it one bit.
also would you also tell me how many people died at work before the trade unions.

[Osem]

Originally Posted by ashgray

yes but you have the attitude of a boss,i have the attitude of a common working man,i was brought up to believe in the power of the unions.
it is the strike breakers that undermine the power of the unions what are the strikers supposed to do stand on the picket line and beg the strike breakers not to go into to work.
I'm sorry but its a rough old world old world out there and sometimes you have to fight and get rough and in my opinion if you strike break you are the lowest of the low and are fair game.
As i said your a boss i'm a worker you wouldn't understand.

You've made a bit of an assumption there matey and not a little patronising. I've never been a 'boss', my father was a manual labourer all his working life and couldn't read/write until he was in his 40's. I work solely for myself and have never employed anyone but before that I was employed just like you. My wife was also a member of Unison for several years until she gave up her job to be with the children. We're hardly anti-union types and if I were an employee on strike I'd wave my banner as high as I could but certainly wouldn't intimidate anyone.

Anyway, presumably then by saying it's a rough world etc. you condone what some police did when dealing so aggressively with some of the striking miners and you wouldn't object if a group of strike breakers decided to get tough with a picket line stopping them exercising their right to go to work? You can't have it both ways i.e strikers can be as aggressive as they like in support of their opinions but nobody else is allowed to do likewise.

I notice you have no comment about the other entirely innocent people who suffer dreadfully as a result of strikes but then you seem only to care about one group of people and one set of rights.

[LondonRoad]

Originally Posted by ashgray

yes but you have the attitude of a boss,i have the attitude of a common working man,i was brought up to believe in the power of the unions.
it is the strike breakers that undermine the power of the unions what are the strikers supposed to do stand on the picket line and beg the strike breakers not to go into to work.
I'm sorry but its a rough old world old world out there and sometimes you have to fight and get rough and in my opinion if you strike break you are the lowest of the low and are fair game.
As i said your a boss i'm a worker you wouldn't understand.

It's not black and white. If you work side by side with somebody who, for whatever reason, is opposed to striking on a particular issue, then you can only try to persuade them otherwise. If you can't persuade them of the value of a collective action then you can only agree to disagree. The intimidation and bullying that happened frequently in the past should stay firmly in the past.

There's a lot of people have had some bad experiences of Trade unions in the past and being stuck in a closed shop mentality doesn't do anything to improve that image.

Unfortunately there is also a large section of management in our country who pride themselves in being "union bashers". They are more to blame for poor industrial relations than any modern trade unionist.

There's a bit historical baggage that this country has to carry in industrial relations. I wish we could change our mindset and realise that good industrial relations between management and staff are mutually beneficial.

Originally Posted by ashgray

Please enlighten me how many people died or were injured during the strikes of the seventies with proof please.
oh yes and i do know of the taxi driver that died during the miners strike and i don't condone it one bit.

What an absurd demand. Here's a few off the top of my head - there are plenty of others, as you well know, but I have better things to do than spend all afternoon trawling the web for links.

1980 Steel Stike - 13 weeks of 'often violent scuffles' (see para. 6).

1984 Maltby picket line violence

1986 Battle of Wapping

And don't think you can neutralise the significance of the murder of David Wilkie by mentioning it first - it is an absolutely classic example of what can happen when you demand that everyone else should be on strike just because that's what you want to do. Here's a link for that tragedy, seeing as we're talking about it:

1985 Miners jailed for pit strike murder

also would you also tell me how many people died at work before the trade unions.

Lots, I expect. That still doesn't grant unions the absolute right to do whatever they want, run closed shops and insist on 100% support for any industrial action they may choose to call, which seems to be what you're advocating.

[Osem]

Originally Posted by LondonRoad

It's not black and white. If you work side by side with somebody who, for whatever reason, is opposed to striking on a particular issue, then you can only try to persuade them otherwise. If you can't persuade them of the value of a collective action then you can only agree to disagree. The intimidation and bullying that happened frequently in the past should stay firmly in the past.

There's a lot of people have had some bad experiences of Trade unions in the past and being stuck in a closed shop mentality doesn't do anything to improve that image.

Unfortunately there is also a large section of management in our country who pride themselves in being "union bashers". They are more to blame for poor industrial relations than any modern trade unionist.

There's a bit historical baggage that this country has to carry in industrial relations. I wish we could change our mindset and realise that good industrial relations between management and staff are mutually beneficial.

Life's full of shades of grey - not confined to black and white. We all have the right to disagree but that should be restricted to argument, not enforced through intimidation and violence.

[ashgray]

Firstly my apologies osem i saw that you were self employed and i wrongly assumed that you were a boss.
As for your statement that you would not intimidate anyone,try standing on a picket line with your family not knowing where there next meals were coming from,with bills to pay etc etc and then tell me you wouldn't intimidate a strike breaker.
the bosses love strike breakers because they undermine the strikers.
No i don't condone what the police did to striking miners they are there to uphold the law not break it,but what happened happened.also if i was stood on a picket line and the strike breakers wanted to cut up rough so be it let battle commence.

[Pierre]

Originally Posted by ashgray

Maybe not but if the strikers get a wage rise you can bet your life the people who didn't go on strike will want there pay to rise to.
Sorry but i've no time for strike breakers.perhaps its because i am a trade union supporter who as stood on the picket line and proudly supported the miners when they were on strike.

Typical trade unionist, a selfish bully.

A bully to all those that disagree with your point of view - we live in a democracy, if I don't agree with your reasons for strike action why should I support you? why should lose money for you? Why, because I can see the need to be flexible in an ever more globalised economy should I be bullied by those who refuse to change.

Selfish because you think of no one but yourself, you don't care who you affect. Unite don't care that they are ruining family holidays of hard working people.

Yes, I agree that unions did a lot in the days of the dark satanic mills but those days are long gone, we have legislation for H&S, working Hours, working conditions, discrimination etc.
You can argue we would have thses laws if wasn't for unions and you may be right, but nowadays unions only exist to serve those that refuse to change. Maybe it'll take something like BA to under and put all their Unite members out of work for them to realise that times have changed.

[Osem]

Originally Posted by ashgray

Firstly my apologies osem i saw that you were self employed and i wrongly assumed that you were a boss.
As for your statement that you would not intimidate anyone,try standing on a picket line with your family not knowing where there next meals were coming from,with bills to pay etc etc and then tell me you wouldn't intimidate a strike breaker.
the bosses love strike breakers because they undermine the strikers.
No i don't condone what the police did to striking miners they are there to uphold the law not break it,but what happened happened.also if i was stood on a picket line and the strike breakers wanted to cut up rough so be it let battle commence.

Apology accepted

I have never resorted to violence or aggression to get what I need and those cabin crew on strike right now or the tube drivers who are likely to be doing likewise shortly are hardly in the position of not knowing where their next meal is coming from. If everyone starts believing that their rights supercede those of others and that enforcing them through violence is OK we're on a very slippery road.

[ashgray]

So come on then chris other than the taxi driver how many have died as a result of the strikes of the 70's and 80's,all you have shown me are violent scuffles.
what about the miners and print workers that were beaten black and blue by thatchers thugs (the police).what about the
strikers that were trampled by police horses or were bitten by police dogs i suppose the strikers hit the coppers truncheons and riot shields with there heads accidently did they.And i suppose the coppers never tormented the strikers with there wage packets either.
oh no the newspapers that you read don't show that sort of thing do they after all the police and the strike breakers are the innocent aren't they.