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Disconnection for abuse
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Old 08-08-2008, 13:19   #16
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Re: Disconnection for abuse

Quote:
Originally Posted by ShaneC View Post
Well done to virginmedia, other ISP's don't give two hoots who abuses their AUP. Even if it wasn't you why didn't you offer to find out who it was and to have a word with them?
It's about time the mobile phone companies starting doing this as well to stop bullying via text etc....
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Old 08-08-2008, 14:43   #17
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Re: Disconnection for abuse

Quote:
Originally Posted by Saaf_laandon_mo View Post
So if I log onto hotmail using my virgin broadband connection and write an offensive email, littered with swear words, I could have my broadband cut off? Is that right? I'm asking because I'm curious, not because I send offensive mails.
cough, cough - Honest, officer....
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Old 08-08-2008, 17:03   #18
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Re: Disconnection for abuse

Quote:
Originally Posted by Rob View Post
Yes, if the recipient complains, and hotmail are logging the IP used to connect and in turn a complaint is then made to Virgin Media.
They do:

X-ORIGINATING-IP, in the bottom of the email header.
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Old 08-08-2008, 18:16   #19
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Re: Disconnection for abuse

Hmm i can smell a rat here or a fish, something fishy is going on
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Old 08-08-2008, 18:33   #20
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Re: Disconnection for abuse

Whatever the point is this email was 6 words long. The email address of the recipient was a department/organisation not an individual. There was no catalougue of emails that could be taken as a campaign against someone (or at least they are not showing them to me and they surely would have if they were going to send one and this was the basis of their "case") and if that was the case they should be involving the police or at least advising the third party to do so.


Morover UK libel law which presumably is at least part of the reasoning behind Virgin thinking this type of thing is any of their busines is fairly clear.
.
You can't easily Libel/Defame someone or an organisation whose reputation is damaged. Harrassment laws are not easily applied to one incident (email) http://www.urban75.org/info/libel.html and http://www.writing.upenn.edu/~afilre...yberspace.html .

It seems whoever received it complained - Virgin looked it up and then without actually bothering to contact me as the account holder, sent me a letter judging it to be abuse. Without talking to the sender how would Virgin know if the complainant had a case.

Whatever your stance on this they should at the very least have "investigated" it by contacting me as the Virgin account holder before finding their own customers guilty for an email presumably they have absolutely no idea was about/concerned or the contect in which it was sent. Law aside Virgin obviously maintain the right to terminate a contract

If you are one of these people that hear the word "abuse" and imagine the worse you have to acknowledge that it is a much maligned term. The widest definitions include thisngs like "if it is offensive to the recipient" etc and on that definition anything any of us say or do can be taken as abuse - or dare I say it anything Virgin transmit into millions of homes on TV could be too. Abuse has to be taken in context and you would expoect an ISP would understand that and at the very least seek clarification as to the context from both parties before attempting to come to a decison<p>



The situation has today got worse becasue today I received a letter dated a day before the postmark and dated the day my Internet Service was disconnected

It makes no reference to the conversations I had with the Internet Security Team manager/supervisor which happened at the end of the day this letter is dated. The person I spoke to did not mention this letter in conversations with me and it has been sent by the person I spoke to yesterday that told me "he knew it was me on the voicemail" even though no name was left and he wouldnt play it back to me and wouldnt answer any questions as to why he thought it was appropriate to make allegations against me becasue I was the account holder. He made no mention of the letter either - that is signed by him - which if it was written when it says it was you would have expected him to do

Basically the letter covers their backsides to ignore all the concerns I raised with them when i actually got to speak to them to try and find out what the issue was about.<p>

The letter says
"We wrote to you on the 24th July 2008 to let you know that offensive emails had been sent from your internet connection (note its emails again when the only email traceroute they sent me contains the word a...hole) We also wrote to you on the 28th July regarding an offensive voicemail you left

(I havent left them any voicemails becasue I refused to deal with a machine after they sent me the original letter and subsequently when they suspended my Internet - and the guy whose name appears on this recent latter is the guy who specifically told me the voicemail doesnt have my name on it and couldnt/wouldnt play it back to me) As we haven't received an apology from you we have had to temporarily suspend your Internet account"

Was no mention of this letter on my account records from 14.30 of the day of the date on this letter which is probaly part of the reason no one in Tech support, Customer Service was aware of it or made aware of it after calls to the department late in the day

Basically it goes on to say I now have to sign an enclosed form and "include a letter of apology" "if we don't hear from you in six weeks, well have to permanently close your email account - and we'd much rather it didn't come to that"

Now just to explain the significance of that. Yesterday ie the day after this latest letter is dated but the same day it is post marked. I sought clarification of my contractual obligations and what Virgin proposed to do give nthe ywere suspending part of the package of services I buy from them. I also raised the issue of my email specifically. My stance with Customer services was if you are going to suspend one of my services fine i am not paying for any of my services from now on and I will seek relief in so far as I can becasue you havent given me 30 days notice, you have presented me with no evidence I have breached the terms and conditions of the contract and you are denying me service whilst asking me to continue paying for it

The attached "form" is made up as far as I can see in that it is bespoke and if I were to sign it it would ammount to an admission I had breached their terms and conditions.

Today I have been referred back to Internet Security becasue all my services remain disconnected - my phone is not just receive incoming calls but totally disconected - which people who have had their outgoing calls suspended will understand is not usual"

So in my mind theye are just tying to cover their backsides an continue to refuse/talk about specific allegations and evidence whilst while trying to effectively blackmail me into admitting I have done something wrong to justify their behaviour

The whole thing throws up some horrendous gaps in their processes from this apparently all powerful team having virtually no customer facing skills, actual knowledge of the law and most importantly the policy they seem to adopting towards their own customers when a third party totally unconnected to virgin accuses someone of "abuse".

Customer Services and every other department refer back to them and are subserviant to them.
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Old 08-08-2008, 18:45   #21
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Re: Disconnection for abuse

1st. You are the account holder and the ip relates to you so at the end of the day you are responsible for whatever happens on your account, if you have wireless it could have been don that way.

But saying that.... virgin attuide to you i think you are in legal position not to pay and have the right to hear the voicemail that was left.

If i was you i would seek legal advice as they might start trying to get you on abuse behaviour (i am not judging you and i am not sure you did or did not) i am just going on the fact they say they have evidance.

You might want to do a look into Data Procection Act, Freedom Information Act
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Old 08-08-2008, 18:46   #22
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Re: Disconnection for abuse

This happened to me when I was with Demon Internet and scanning with the Back Orifice, I got disconnected and had to write a letter of apology along with saying I would'nt do it again... basically, I was a naughty boy and I got caught as has happened to you here.

Enjoy your new ISP.
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Old 08-08-2008, 19:11   #23
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Re: Disconnection for abuse

Quote:
Originally Posted by foreverwar View Post
cough, cough - Honest, officer....
No if someone else uses you connection and sends one email containing a misspelt swear word and an insulting word you can be cut off and aslked to admit you broke their terms and conditions.

---------- Post added at 19:04 ---------- Previous post was at 19:00 ----------

Quote:
Originally Posted by mcgeezer View Post
This happened to me when I was with Demon Internet and scanning with the Back Orifice, I got disconnected and had to write a letter of apology along with saying I would'nt do it again... basically, I was a naughty boy and I got caught as has happened to you here.

Enjoy your new ISP.

I am not a naughty boy - im in my late 30s. They can do what they like but they can't expect people to just accept their behaviour when it comes to breaching contract wit htheir customers and alledging some potential marginal libel/harrassment has taken place against a third party.

---------- Post added at 19:11 ---------- Previous post was at 19:04 ----------

Quote:
Originally Posted by Andrewcrawford23 View Post
1st. You are the account holder and the ip relates to you so at the end of the day you are responsible for whatever happens on your account, if you have wireless it could have been don that way.

But saying that.... virgin attuide to you i think you are in legal position not to pay and have the right to hear the voicemail that was left.

If i was you i would seek legal advice as they might start trying to get you on abuse behaviour (i am not judging you and i am not sure you did or did not) i am just going on the fact they say they have evidance.

You might want to do a look into Data Procection Act, Freedom Information Act
Good response my friend.

Precisely it could have been done via wireless which is why they are incredibly dumb to be sending these letters for one email containing the word "asshole"

Beleive me they dont have any evidence against me and if this email was one of many they would most certainly have told me by now to shut me up and/or told me the police were involved. I have asked becasue if something serious is going on I would understand their interest - it isnt - its a simple case of one short email an alledged voicemail and ineffective policies and processes being implemented by people largely untrained in dealing with customers.

That is 99% not the case becasue all they want me to do at the moment is admit I have breached their T&C's and I wont do it again - thus getting them off the hook for their shoddy "inestigation" and treatment of a valuable perviously loyal customer.

Until yesterday I couldnt spend any more money with Virgin unless I took a top Mobile package and rang international / mobile numbers all day long and rented more than a few movies on demand a month.

At the end of the day I am essentailly going to persue them legally in as efficient manner as I can that will cause maximum effort on their par. Virgin like many organisations have deliberately designed their customer facing organisations to fob off customers as efficeintly as they can and they are powerless to do anything outside a very tight remit.
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Old 08-08-2008, 19:13   #24
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Re: Disconnection for abuse

If your name wasn't anywhere to be found on the voicemail, can we at least assume they have verified (to your satisfaction) it came from your number?
And if so, do you know who might have done the dirty deed on your behalf.. & why aren't you kicking the living **** out of them?
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Old 08-08-2008, 19:22   #25
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Re: Disconnection for abuse

Quote:
Originally Posted by Thunderballs View Post
No if someone else uses you connection and sends one email containing a misspelt swear word and an insulting word you can be cut off and aslked to admit you broke their terms and conditions.
But it is you who is responsible under the terms and conditions for how your connection is used.

Quote:
I am not a naughty boy - im in my late 30s. They can do what they like but they can't expect people to just accept their behaviour when it comes to breaching contract wit htheir customers and alledging some potential marginal libel/harrassment has taken place against a third party.
Why does age mean that you can't do no wrong

The IP of the original email was logged. It shows it was your connection being used.

Quote:
Precisely it could have been done via wireless which is why they are incredibly dumb to be sending these letters for one email containing the word "asshole"
If you are using wireless it's your responsibility to ensure it was secured. It's still not Virgin Media's fault if it was insecure and thus the email was sent.

At the end of the day. If you had been the recipient of this email, reported it to the ISP through which it was sent, do you then sit back and expect the ISP to ignore it, or do nothing about it? Why should it matter if it was one email or 100? Why should it matter if it's personal, or could be read by many? Congrats to Virgin Media for actually getting off their backsides and following up the complaint.
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Old 08-08-2008, 19:32   #26
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Re: Disconnection for abuse

Quote:
Originally Posted by Thunderballs View Post
Precisely it could have been done via wireless which is why they are incredibly dumb to be sending these letters for one email containing the word "asshole"
The initial letter or email you claim to have received warned you, the threat of disconnection according to what you posted was only IF the abuse continued. From that you would have ample opportunity to investigate the cause of the problem and rectify it if it indeed was a wireless router issue, however you appear to have decided it would be better to maintain your hard man image and resort to offensive language via voicemail (you're not fooling most people here with "the other guy" excuse).

Quote:
Believe me they dont have any evidence against me
The IP address is ample enough evidence for any network. How about copying the email to this forum and see if anyone agrees that VM's warning was harsh?

Quote:
and if this email was one of many they would most certainly have told me by now to shut me up and/or told me the police were involved.
They did warn you, and you or somebody else (you claim) responded in an offensive way.

Quote:
I have asked becasue if something serious is going on I would understand their interest - it isnt - its a simple case of one short email an alledged voicemail and ineffective policies and processes being implemented by people largely untrained in dealing with customers.
Innefective? You're no longer a VM customer abusing other internet users.

Quote:
That is 99% not the case becasue all they want me to do at the moment is admit I have breached their T&C's and I wont do it again - thus getting them off the hook for their shoddy "inestigation" and treatment of a valuable perviously loyal customer.
They also want you to apologise for your comments to a staff member, how long do you think you would have a bank account if you told the counter staff to Eff Off!?
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Old 08-08-2008, 19:36   #27
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Re: Disconnection for abuse

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take them to court
For what exactly?
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Old 08-08-2008, 19:37   #28
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Re: Disconnection for abuse

Quote:
Originally Posted by Rob View Post
But it is you who is responsible under the terms and conditions for how your connection is used.



Why does age mean that you can't do no wrong

The IP of the original email was logged. It shows it was your connection being used.



If you are using wireless it's your responsibility to ensure it was secured. It's still not Virgin Media's fault if it was insecure and thus the email was sent.

At the end of the day. If you had been the recipient of this email, reported it to the ISP through which it was sent, do you then sit back and expect the ISP to ignore it, or do nothing about it? Why should it matter if it was one email or 100? Why should it matter if it's personal, or could be read by many? Congrats to Virgin Media for actually getting off their backsides and following up the complaint.
you are absolutely correct on most of what you say but Viorgin are my ISP not my or anyone elses moral guardian.

The point is they havent followed up on a complaint - they have simply prejudged me as the account holder for an extremely trivial matter involving my internet service.

If they are to be "congratulated" for loosing a valuable customer over the word "asshole" in an an email and you consider that a good use of thier time in this moral crusade you seem to want them to persue fine - you are entitled to your opinion.
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Old 08-08-2008, 19:40   #29
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Re: Disconnection for abuse

Quote:
Originally Posted by Andrewcrawford23 View Post
You might want to do a look into Data Procection Act, Freedom Information Act
Oh for crying-out-loud Andrew!

The guy gets a warning email for an offence of Virgin's T&C's, and the VM team responsible get a voicemail from someone claiming to be the guy, and to the person sending him the warning he tells them EFF OFF!

How did they assume it was him, because he must have quoted some sort of reference to himself, possibly a reference number? I suspect the real issue here is that he, the O/P, is not giving us the whle picture and garneshing the truth to solicit some sort of sympathy....surely you can see that?

FIA only applies to government and public bodies, he'd have more luck with a DPA request....but I doubt it.
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Old 08-08-2008, 19:54   #30
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Re: Disconnection for abuse

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Originally Posted by Toto View Post
Oh for crying-out-loud Andrew!

The guy gets a warning email for an offence of Virgin's T&C's, and the VM team responsible get a voicemail from someone claiming to be the guy, and to the person sending him the warning he tells them EFF OFF!

How did they assume it was him, because he must have quoted some sort of reference to himself, possibly a reference number? I suspect the real issue here is that he, the O/P, is not giving us the whle picture and garneshing the truth to solicit some sort of sympathy....surely you can see that?

FIA only applies to government and public bodies, he'd have more luck with a DPA request....but I doubt it.
You work for Virgin ?

As said before if they have a voicemail I am yet to hear it. If there is a reference number on it they havent told me that but its practically irrelevant. It a voicemail they use to fob off customers and hide behind when they have made aqusations against them and either have or are threatening to cut them off. I would imagine that voicemail is heaving with unhappy customers.

Not only that if you are ever in the situation of having to deal with this team you will find that they are substantially invisible to all the Customer facing organisations in Virgin - Customer Services, Technical Support and Customer Retentions have all had to ask me for the number.none of the actual letter they have sent to me appear in their notes - but abbreviated notes do.

Their letters hold me specifically responsible for the email and requitre an admisson and apology for breaching contract becasue of the email.
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