Would John Smith Have Made A Good PM?

Originally Posted by andyl

I wondered whether people thought John Smith would have made a good PM.

Although I may not have agreed with his politics and the phrase is a bit of a cliche, I think John Smith is the best Prime Minister we didn't get.

Compared to Foot, Kinnock et al he was moderate and understanding and compared to Blair, well, he was a *Labour* politician...!!!

How he would have done in office, I don't know, but at least we wouldn't have had New Labour.

John Smith no doubt would have been a good Prime Minister as indeed Michael Foot & Neil Kinnock had they succeeded. But you underestimate and have not understood that Tony Blair and the New Labour project have been and still are remarkably successful. James Callaghan was the most disappointing Labour premier since WW2.

The winning of two general elections with staggering majorities is a record of unique achievement. Consider that the Labour Party of the 80s was a bickering rag bag diminishing in membership and frankly falling apart. The New Labour project has rebuilt and renewed Labour goals. Tony Blair and his team were the first to lead the Labour Party in two successive terms of office, now that is a real achievement. It is still possible that Tony Blair could lead Labour to a third parliamentary victory. Before New Labour took over the Labour was in an extraordinary mess, there was no accurate count of memebrship, no proper modern methods of business in organisation and fund raising. Labour can now quite happily accept donations from TUs and business.

One doesn't need to agree with everything our Prime minister says or does, he has renewed confidence and worked for progress, that this country is now better off than it was in the sad, bitter miserable days of Conservative rule.

Tony Blair has seen off several Conservative leaders. In time history will record him as quite a remarkable figure, yes with faults, he has courage of conviction and despite everything thrown against him, he has remained resilient.

[Xaccers]

Yes, TB had done a fantastic job of turning people off politics

Originally Posted by Gogogo

John Smith no doubt would have been a good Prime Minister as indeed Michael Foot & Neil Kinnock had they succeeded. But you underestimate and have not understood that Tony Blair and the New Labour project have been and still are remarkably successful. James Callaghan was the most disappointing Labour premier since WW2.

The winning of two general elections with staggering majorities is a record of unique achievement. Consider that the Labour Party of the 80s was a bickering rag bag diminishing in membership and frankly falling apart. The New Labour project has rebuilt and renewed Labour goals. Tony Blair and his team were the first to lead the Labour Party in two successive terms of office, now that is a real achievement. It is still possible that Tony Blair could lead Labour to a third parliamentary victory. Before New Labour took over the Labour was in an extraordinary mess, there was no accurate count of memebrship, no proper modern methods of business in organisation and fund raising. Labour can now quite happily accept donations from TUs and business.

One doesn't need to agree with everything our Prime minister says or does, he has renewed confidence and worked for progress, that this country is now better off than it was in the sad, bitter miserable days of Conservative rule.

Tony Blair has seen off several Conservative leaders. In time history will record him as quite a remarkable figure, yes with faults, he has courage of conviction and despite everything thrown against him, he has remained resilient.

Whilst taking on your point about the fractured nature of the Labour Party in the 80s the problem with Blair and co is that they've seen off Conservative leaders by out-Torying the Tories (tuition fees, house arrest etc).It's a deliberate strategy imported from the States. Labour is a brand rather than an ideological force in that sense. But I guess lesser of two evils from my point of view, especially as I too can remember those sad, bitter days.

Originally Posted by Xaccers

Yes, TB had done a fantastic job of turning people off politics

Evidence?
__________________

Originally Posted by andyl

...the problem with Blair and co is that they've seen off Conservative leaders by out-Torying the Tories... Labour is a brand rather than an ideological force in that sense...

Out-Torying the Tories?

So the Tories then were in favour of:

The national minimum wage?
The setting up of the Scottish & Welsh assemblies?
The setting up of the Greater London Assembly?
Massive injection of funds into Health, Education, Policing etc, etc?
Getting the unemployed and the unemployable into work?

This is a mere shortlist of achievement. The Tories were opposed to all the above hardly evidence for what you claim.

[aliferste]

LOL,

To be honest I do not think it really matters who is actually prime minister. We will all find something to moan about eventually.

Originally Posted by Gogogo

Evidence?
__________________




Out-Torying the Tories?

So the Tories then were in favour of:

The national minimum wage?
The setting up of the Scottish & Welsh assemblies?
The setting up of the Greater London Assembly?
Massive injection of funds into Health, Education, Policing etc, etc?
Getting the unemployed and the unemployable into work?

This is a mere shortlist of achievement. The Tories were opposed to all the above hardly evidence for what you claim.

Fair point and as I say lesser of two evils. But tuition fees? That one move made me question just what makes this Government tick ideologically. Profoundly not part of traditional Labour ideology - and we're moving towards selective education in schools now.Then there's the whole Iraq thing (raising a whole raft of Qs). The crapness of adopting the tax credit system (just tax people properly Gordon!) which is a nightmare for many. The idiocy of PFI. The idiocy of foundation hospitals.

[ikthius]

john smith was a scottish bloke that never made it to be prime minister because of an untimely death.
he started the whole new labour and TB just kept it going, JS was changing labour for the good at the time, but no more, especially after the war that should never have been.

ik

EDIT: and yes he would have made a good PM

[Xaccers]

Originally Posted by Gogogo

Evidence?

Have you seen labour women MP's?
They turn me off!

Now the tories, they've got some hot bits of crumpet!

Originally Posted by Xaccers

Have you seen labour women MP's?
They turn me off!

Now the tories, they've got some hot bits of crumpet!

__________________

Originally Posted by andyl

Fair point and as I say lesser of two evils. But tuition fees? That one move made me question just what makes this Government tick ideologically. Profoundly not part of traditional Labour ideology - and we're moving towards selective education in schools now.Then there's the whole Iraq thing (raising a whole raft of Qs). The crapness of adopting the tax credit system (just tax people properly Gordon!) which is a nightmare for many. The idiocy of PFI. The idiocy of foundation hospitals.

Tuition fees, I understand not in Scotland. OK as I said I don't agree with everything, and I think this should have been discussed more and alternatives explored.

Iraq, sorry but for me at least my hatred and anger against Saddam Hussein and Baath Party rule in Iraq meant I supported the government and parliament's decision, he had to go sooner or later, as it was it was sooner and good ridance. Anyway old ground and events in Iraq have now changed for the better. Only wish for more positive action against mugabe and his gangsters now.

PFI, again sorry but I think there is no room for old fashioned left extremist dogma, screaming Trots & SWPers hate it: too bad. The private sector needs to be involved in reconstruction its good for them and for all.

Foundation hospitals let's see the jury is still out on that, there is also room for the private sector in education, selective education yes we need to have a shake up, we should invest in the best, again there is no room for dogma.

Tax credits? What's the problem?

Tuition fees, I understand not in Scotland. OK as I said I don't agree with everything, and I think this should have been discussed more and alternatives explored.

__________________

Agreed.

Iraq, sorry but for me at least my hatred and anger against Saddam Hussein and Baath Party rule in Iraq meant I supported the government and parliament's decision, he had to go sooner or later, as it was it was sooner and good ridance. Anyway old ground and events in Iraq have now changed for the better. Only wish for more positive action against mugabe and his gangsters now.

Not suggesting Hussein is a nice kinda guy bit it's the whole false premise and disregard for international law, and disregard for Parliament and us, that got me. And making us a bigger terrorist target for not taking into account the wider Middle Eastern picture.

PFI, again sorry but I think there is no room for old fashioned left extremist dogma, screaming Trots & SWPers hate it: too bad. The private sector needs to be involved in reconstruction its good for them and for all.

PFI looks to have been, and continues to be a costly disaster. And one that only has occurred because of a failure to get a grip of the taxation system. Not a Trot by the way

Foundation hospitals let's see the jury is still out on that,

Very much so!

there is also room for the private sector in education, selective education yes we need to have a shake up, we should invest in the best, again there is no room for dogma.

The proposals for separation of vocational and non-vocational candidates is a cause for concern.

Tax credits? What's the problem?

It's a nightmare of paperwork and reapplication. They've only done it because they think it's politically unacceptable to sort the Income Tax regime out.





Hey, this is like the factionalised 1980s again!! Only messing... I'm on your side, basically



EDIT: Xaccers!!!!!!!! You know what I'm going to say............................................... .................................................. .......................................... Tories with a capital 'T' Oh, and I'm really unsure about your assertion

Originally Posted by Gogogo

John Smith no doubt would have been a good Prime Minister as indeed Michael Foot & Neil Kinnock had they succeeded.

Sorry, but I really don't think either of the latter two *would* have been good in the job. They were nowhere near as impressive as Smith when he was speaking from the Dispatch Box and Blair is nowhere as good as him either.

But you underestimate and have not understood that Tony Blair and the New Labour project have been and still are remarkably successful.

Blair and New Labour have only succeeded because they stole huge chunks of Tory ideas and repackaged them a bit more to the left (but still right of centre) whilst ditching practically everything to do with what their party had stood for. The Tories lost out because by the end of the Thatcher years they'd gone so far to the right that they'd alienated most of the country.

Ok, I didn't *agree* with what Old Labour stood for, but becoming another Tory party wasn't the best thing for the country and risks us ending up like the USA where you can either vote for the Right Wing party or the *really* Right Wing party!

The winning of two general elections with staggering majorities is a record of unique achievement.

And 40% of the voters not turning out for the last one is *also* a staggering achievement, but not one that they want to brag about!!

The New Labour project has rebuilt and renewed Labour goals.

"Renewed"? Totally changed, I think you mean!

Tony Blair and his team were the first to lead the Labour Party in two successive terms of office, now that is a real achievement.

Not really, because a lot of that "success" is due to people not wanting to vote the Tories back in again after the disaster that the Thatcher years turned out to be (and Major was just a joke).

Unfortunately picking Michael Howard (architect of the Poll Tax!) as their leader is a serious mistake because a lot of people *do* remember him as being associated with the '80s and they don't want that back again.

The only problem is that the Lib Dems are still not really credible as a political force and they need to get some strong leadership and clearer policies before people will vote for them in a big way.

It is still possible that Tony Blair could lead Labour to a third parliamentary victory.

Regrettably it looks more inevitable than just "possible" but I predict that the next election is going to have the lowest turnout *ever* for a General Election.

One doesn't need to agree with everything our Prime minister says or does, he has renewed confidence and worked for progress, that this country is now better off than it was in the sad, bitter miserable days of Conservative rule.

"Renewed confidence"? Not in politicians he hasn't! The behaviour of the Government before and during the Iraq war was utterly shameful and all the spin and calls that "we must move on" aren't convincing anybody.

As for "worked for progress", the NHS is in a mess, schools are in a mess, University tuition fees are in a mess, the attempts to foist ID cards are in a mess, asylum and immigration are in a mess, Blair and his bunch have bodged up too many things and if they get in for a third time they're going to end up being viewed in the same light as the Tories in the '80s.

Tony Blair has seen off several Conservative leaders.

Yes, because frankly they picked a bunch of total incompetants! It's not difficult to win against weak opposition.

In time history will record him as quite a remarkable figure,

Remarkable, yes, but not, I think, for the reasons you suggest!

he has courage of conviction and despite everything thrown against him, he has remained resilient.

True, but is that really a *good* thing in a leader? We've seen him time and again ignore public (and his own party's) opinion and plough on regardless because "Tony knows best".

Well, I'm sorry, but I don't think he does and a little humility (real, not simulated) and a little less spin and a bit more listening and paying attention would be a good thing.

[Xaccers]

Originally Posted by andyl

Not suggesting Hussein is a nice kinda guy bit it's the whole false premise and disregard for international law, and disregard for Parliament and us, that got me. And making us a bigger terrorist target for not taking into account the wider Middle Eastern picture.

Strange how people don't go on about breaches of international law when it comes to Kosovo, another military action without UN backing

Originally Posted by andyl

EDIT: Xaccers!!!!!!!! You know what I'm going to say............................................... .................................................. .......................................... Tories with a capital 'T' Oh, and I'm really unsure about your assertion

Mrs T was a hot bit of stuff in her day!

Originally Posted by Xaccers

Strange how people don't go on about breaches of international law when it comes to Kosovo, another military action without UN backing

I'll admit I'll have to do some research there.

Mrs T was a hot bit of stuff in her day!

Any chance you'll share your stash cos I want some of those drugs your on!

[nffc]

Originally Posted by andyl

Like a pint of John Smiths?!

Was it that unfunny or has it taken that long for someone to get it? Presume the former...