The Welfare State - Page 2

13-03-2005, 22:09

Could get confusing if it's merged into the 'all cap discussions here' thread though!

allieyoung666 · 13-03-2005, 22:13

I see it everyday on a hospitial ward, they try to convience the DRs that there is something wrong with them. When we have case meetings we have to discuss the patients records and we see it time and time again the sme old, same old. I do not have any problems. The only problem I have is teenage baby machines, people who smoke round their kids and then claim they have chronic lung problems [I wonder why!], people who are so fat that they cannot move to get their arse off a chair and find a job, the ones who refuse to work as the welfare state is to much of a good thing and the ones who know there is nothing wrong with them but just do not want to work. The other week we had the DSS invesigation team on the ward asking for a patients notes as they had caught someone doing cash in hand benefits. He told them that he was just holding the leaflets for someone and he couldnt work as he had a bad back! And that he was under a consultant that had retired 4yrs ago [but he did not know that] I hope they make him pay every single penny back!
And yes I have dobbed my neighour in as I am sick to the back teeth of me and Paul paying of his life of leisure,
Like Paul says when we get his compo were outta here and the sooner the better, as I refuse to supplement anyones cushy lifestyle and I bet plenty of people will agree with me on that! And by the way I work very bloody hard!

Ramrod · 13-03-2005, 22:17

Quote:

Originally Posted by allieyoung666

I see it everyday on a hospitial ward, they try to convience the DRs that there is something wrong with them. When we have case meetings we have to discuss the patients records and we see it time and time again the sme old, same old. I do not have any problems. The only problem I have is teenage baby machines, people who smoke round their kids and then claim they have chronic lung problems [I wonder why!], people who are so fat that they cannot move to get their arse off a chair and find a job, the ones who refuse to work as the welfare state is to much of a good thing and the ones who know there is nothing wrong with them but just do not want to work. The other week we had the DSS invesigation team on the ward asking for a patients notes as they had caught someone doing cash in hand benefits. He told them that he was just holding the leaflets for someone and he couldnt work as he had a bad back! And that he was under a consultant that had retired 4yrs ago [but he did not know that] I hope they make him pay every single penny back!
And yes I have dobbed my neighour in as I am sick to the back teeth of me and Paul paying of his life of leisure,
Like Paul says when we get his compo were outta here and the sooner the better, as I refuse to supplement anyones cushy lifestyle and I bet plenty of people will agree with me on that! And by the way I work very bloody hard!

Good rant......someone rep her

allieyoung666 · 13-03-2005, 22:20

I mean what I say, Im sorry but I am like that, take it or leave it!

Ramrod · 13-03-2005, 22:23

Quote:

Originally Posted by allieyoung666

I mean what I say, Im sorry but I am like that, take it or leave it!

Paul K · 13-03-2005, 22:33

Quote:

Originally Posted by allieyoung666

I mean what I say, Im sorry but I am like that, take it or leave it!

Oh I have no problem with the majority of your rant as I actually agree with a number of your points (see my above posts) the only point that I don't agree with is your suggestion that most people on welfare are spongers. Now if you were to say that a certain percentage of people on welfare were getting money that they have no rights to then I'd support your rant whole heartedly.
Like your Paul I've worked since I was 15 and I've been paying my taxes since I was 17. In all those years I have never received any money from the welfare system even though I was out of work for 4 months after the plant I worked in closed down. Pride meant I refused to claim job seekers allowance in that time as a part of me would be ashamed to even go in and ask for it.
Let's face it we all have a problem with the increase in people that are leeching money from the system due to their sheer idleness and I'm not even going to get started on those mobile baby factories that are hanging about in the city centres instead of going to school these days.
There are however people out there that claim welfare to help top their earnings up so that they can afford to raise their kids and look after their families properly. Are these people sponging? No. Are they a minority? Probably

Escapee · 13-03-2005, 22:40

My father is unable to work, but he doesn't get a big hand out like many do. He will not even have the Blue badge and free road tax because he's too proud. It means my mother has two jobs to keep finances manageable, the strange thing is somedays my father looks OK, then other days he is unable to get out of bed.

He worked all his life and had never been out of work, the problem started when he was made redundant. Not being the type shy of work he took a job in a timber yard along with a few other younger and fitter guys loading lorries with logs by hand, unfortunayely he did a lot of damage to his back in those few weeks and had to give it up. He applied for a job as a postman and was successful, he struggled around for about 9 months carrying the sack of letters until one day he slipped in the snow.

He had to go on income support, and it was based on your last earnings. In those days postmen were not paid very well, so he didn't get a great deal of assistance. He came off income support for a while and did some driving work, but found that some days he was ok, and other he couldn't move. He eventually paid to go to a private specialist but he said the damage was too far, and an operation would not help. He is now on income support and finds it difficult to get about part of the time, I'm sure anyone seeing him on one of his good days would assume there's nothing wrong with him. Due to the damage to his spine, his one leg is a lot thinner than the other.

My father doesn't do that well on benefits, but we do know some people who are coining it in for injuries far less severe than my fathers.

Make no mistake, if he could work he would!

ian@huth · 14-03-2005, 00:02

I used to have a view that I would never sponge on the welfare state and didn't believe in having a day off work sick. I would drag myself in no matter what having the view that if I felt rough I would still feel rough whether at work or home and being at work would take my mind off of it.

However things change and an accident coupled with a big deterioration in my health due to Parkinsons disease and osteoarthritis meant that I couldn't work. Principles have to change when hard reality strikes and benefits were the only way. I get DLA and other benefits but they aren't as easy to get as some people make out. It was quite a fight with the DWP as Sociable would back up if he was posting. What used to get me though was during the time that I was fighting with the DWP there were quite a few articles in the press about people being convicted for benefits fraud. Some people were making several claims under different names and getting them all passed. One chap from the Indian sub-continent was getting DLA under seven different names and many other benefits under even more names and had a seven figure bank balance hidden away. He had been caught out after several years and when checked by medical examiners was found to not even qualify for DLA. Over the last few years I have seen plenty of people who are disabled enough to qualify for DLA but are being refused it and plenty of others who are getting DLA but shouldn't be. Some people know how to work the system.

On the other side of the coin there is my 85 year old Mother. She is disabled and gets various benefits besides her state pension. During her working life she worked hard and struggled to make ends meet. Now she is getting far more money than she knows what to do with. She could manage quite easily on half of what she is getting. Maybe if she was fitter and could get out she could spend more but then she wouldn't be getting as much as she now gets.

The whole benefits system stinks and needs a good shaking up. Having several kids to enable you to have benefits income far above what most people earn should be one area that needs looking at. If the culprits getting the benefits knew that the rewards wouldn't be there I am sure their family size would never have got as big as it did.

greencreeper · 14-03-2005, 01:02

The way the system works, for the disabled, is that initially after claiming you're pretty much left alone. Then the hassling starts. First off, you get a form called the "All work test". Takes about 2 hrs to complete and asks questions such as, "Can you put a hat on". If you tick the right boxes, and enough of them, you're left alone - for a while. If you're unlucky - e.g. the woman who checked your form had PMT - then you will be called for a medical, where a doctor who wouldn't be out of place in a Nazi concentration camp, sets out to prove that you can work and that there's nothing wrong with you. They have quotas - so if your medical is at the wrong time of the month, you've had it. The doctor is there to refuse benefits to as many people as possible. The theory is that those people who are entitled to benefits will appeal against the decision and most likely win. The reality is that an awful lot of sick people give up the fight and return to work - or try to - and make themselves worse.

My dad has been through the system more times than I can remember, and the forms, battles and visits to (D)SS offices were a constant feature of my childhood. He's always fought the Government and has always won. That doesn't mean that when a (D)SS envelope arrives he doesn't become depressed. His lumber spine broke and healed displaced because he didn't seek medical treatment - you didn't when he was young and in the industry he worked in. Pain is a constant feature of his life and he deals with it. He's now in his 50s and has arthritis and high blood pressure - he is still hassled by the (D)SS.

It's the system and the people who staff it that are sickest though.

ian@huth · 14-03-2005, 01:31

Quote:

Originally Posted by greencreeper

The way the system works, for the disabled....
snip.

How true. I had one EMP visit where the doctor only saw me walk three steps and on his report stated that I had a normal gait with an occasional limp in my left leg. WTF he must be psychic.

Stuart · 14-03-2005, 02:07

Quote:

Originally Posted by allieyoung666

Yeah that really annoys me 2. Paul had a really bad accident in Oct 03, we took months and months of fighting to get his industrial injuries benefit, I was told by a former Social employee, that if Paul had lost his leg [which he nearly did] we would have been rolling in it. I got upet and angry by this, as I have a neighbour next door who we have had no end of problems with, he claims he has a back injury but he walks fine without his stick. But when assement time comes out comes the walking stick and the limp. I have reported him time and time again, but nothing is ever done to this guy, he has even threatened Paul with the stick!!!!!! I am still fighting for my husband to get DLA, but he got that fed up Paul ended up going back to work and we still do not even know if he is going to have his leg as he cannot stand to well on it at all now.

The problem is that any way the government has tightened up the DLA regulations to cut out the scroungers, it has only resulted in those that DO need the benefit struggling.

For most of her teenage years, my sister was suffering from severe back pan. For several years, this was dismissed by our GP for various reasons (she slouched, she stood too straight were two). Eventually, we persudaded him to actually do somthing about it, and after several failed treatments (including going to a Chiropractor who nearly crippled her), the GP referred us to our local hospital, where they found a tumour at the base of her spine.

Our local hospital couldn't handle the surgery required, so they referred her to the Royal National Orthopeadic Hospital (which is apparently the top hospital in Europe for bone surgery) where they removed the tumour. A removal which involved going through the base of her spine, and replacing her "sacrum" with a titanium implant.

When she first came out of the hospital, she qualified for the top rate of DLA . She also qualified after every re-assement over the years, until a couple of years ago. The DSS sent a GP to assess her. He spent 10 minutes talking to her, didn't ask her to move in any way, and based on the questions he was asking, clearly didn't understand the operation she had been through (despite having a written statement from the consultant who performed the op).

A few days later, we got a letter saying that she was no longer entitled to DLA. She was (and still is) signed off by the RNOH, so we consulted her consultant. He wrote a letter to the DSS, and, surprise, she was entitled.

Now, my point is, that inbetween her current claim, and the previous successful claim, the government (under Tony Blair) had actually massively tightened up the claims system for DLA.

For the record: We were told, by the RNOH, that had the GP we were under at the time actually done his job properly and ordered an MRI scan when she first went to him with a problem (or at least at some point in the first two years), the local hospital could have reduced the size of the tumour through chemotherapy, and removed it without going through the spine.

While I agree there are a lot of scroungers, I don't believe most DLA claimants are scroungers. A hell of a lot aren't. It's not fair to tarnish everyone with the same brush.

NitroNutter · 14-03-2005, 06:19

The real question is just what level of long term ill health deems a valid DLA claim.

The current system shows it as too easy for fakers but too hard for real needs. So how do you go about making it the other way round ? so those in need get the right benefits without the hassle while warding off these fakers who get it so easily.

With valid diagnosis it took me 3 years or so to get DLA, and that benefit is now in a large way is really just paying the interest on the debt I accrued supporting a wife 2 kids and the mortgage on the almost useless income support that you get today, for those 3 years.

I really fail to see how anyone can fake it unless they are two timing the system by working aswell. However you *cannot* survive on income support alone so the need to subsidise your income somehow is a nessecity. So some who are really ill are still forced to a life of crime by working while claiming as its the only way to get a livable income.

The current welfare state is not in anyway a safety net for those on long term ill health.
Even with DLA a disabled household with the average 2 children are not on any great amount of money from the state. Having more kids to top up the income really isnt an option.

deadite66 · 14-03-2005, 06:32

i think there should be a cap on child support, limited to say 3 children any more than that and you have to fully pay for them yourselves (excusing something like quads and other multiple births).

also unemplyment benefit should be limited to so many years in your lifetime, want to scronge you way through life and sooner or later you'll run out.

xcdtowg · 14-03-2005, 08:36

Some people don' realise, but it is actually very VERY hard to get on to benefits. I receive benefits to help with my living costs and its a very small amount. I get them because I am in full time education and I have no one to support me.
I left school and worked for a year for some money before I went to college and it took me 4 months to find a job, and i applied to everything i found, at least 10 out of the newspaper at a time and wandered the shops for ads.
When I went to college i asked the council for advice and they first said i wasn't allowed any kind of benefit...so that would mean i would basically be homeless at 17. Having heard that the nice lady decides hmmm maybe i am allowed something... and sets me up with a load of forms to help pay my rate. This took another 3 months of going backwards and forwards.
When i went to college i realised i had no money coming in for anything like to buy new shoes etc and i asked the Connextions lady at my college and apparentely the council hadnt informed me i was entitled to a little extra money for things like that. Conveniant. This was christmas time another 3 months down the line.

So months and months it took me just to be able to get my A levels, and i'm no scrounger, i finish my A levels this year, work in summer and go straight to uni.

I think all the benefit systems are quite corrupt, giving out to peopel that are lying and not out to people that do need it. But the media love to make moral panics out of these kinds of things, i'm sure the majority of people are in true need of benefits and as with most things its the odd few that spoil things for the lot.

Escapee · 14-03-2005, 08:57

Quote:

Originally Posted by greencreeper

The way the system works, for the disabled, is that initially after claiming you're pretty much left alone. Then the hassling starts. First off, you get a form called the "All work test". Takes about 2 hrs to complete and asks questions such as, "Can you put a hat on". If you tick the right boxes, and enough of them, you're left alone - for a while. If you're unlucky - e.g. the woman who checked your form had PMT - then you will be called for a medical, where a doctor who wouldn't be out of place in a Nazi concentration camp, sets out to prove that you can work and that there's nothing wrong with you. They have quotas - so if your medical is at the wrong time of the month, you've had it. The doctor is there to refuse benefits to as many people as possible. The theory is that those people who are entitled to benefits will appeal against the decision and most likely win. The reality is that an awful lot of sick people give up the fight and return to work - or try to - and make themselves worse.

My dad has been through the system more times than I can remember, and the forms, battles and visits to (D)SS offices were a constant feature of my childhood. He's always fought the Government and has always won. That doesn't mean that when a (D)SS envelope arrives he doesn't become depressed. His lumber spine broke and healed displaced because he didn't seek medical treatment - you didn't when he was young and in the industry he worked in. Pain is a constant feature of his life and he deals with it. He's now in his 50s and has arthritis and high blood pressure - he is still hassled by the (D)SS.

It's the system and the people who staff it that are sickest though.

My father has been called in a few times, they look at his medical report and then leave him alone when they realise his condition is only going to get worse.

He was very annoyed a few years ago, because the next door neighbour is also very ill with Parkinsons disease. My father was worried because the neighbour was using a big lawn mower and is not a very well guy, my father went over and they both struggled to mow the large lawn.

He was reported to the DSS for doing paid gardening work, since that he now has to refuse help to the ill neighbour.