Racial Equality ?? - Page 2

Russ · 07-03-2005, 16:48

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/education/4326007.stm

Common sense to prevail?

**Maggy** · 07-03-2005, 17:18

Actually in our school in science they do take the brighter boys(of any ethnic background) and put them into one class away from the girls during year 10 and 11.It works!

The girls will do well whether they are with boys or not but the boys do find girls a distraction(and Russ I'm really not being sexist or racist just pragmatic).

I as a teacher will consider any method if it benefits the students and their future as members of our society.If one way of teaching a subject won't work I'll try another way.If one explanation is not understood then I'll try to rephrase it it so the student can understand.I'll keep doing that until the child understands.

Not everyone does well in mainstream education and there should be a way to accomodate them all.

Russ · 07-03-2005, 17:28

Quote:

Originally Posted by Incognitas

The girls will do well whether they are with boys or not but the boys do find girls a distraction(and Russ I'm really not being sexist or racist just pragmatic).

I didn't realise you had me figured as one of the "That's racist!!" types!!

**Maggy** · 07-03-2005, 17:31

Quote:

Originally Posted by Russ D

I didn't realise you had me figured as one of the "That's racist!!" types!!

No, just covering all bases for all people...

Russ · 07-03-2005, 17:31

But you named me!!! That's..erm.....baldist!!

**Maggy** · 07-03-2005, 17:42

Quote:

Originally Posted by Russ D

But you named me!!! That's..erm.....baldist!!

No that's just familiarity breeding errrrrr....contempt?

Russ · 07-03-2005, 17:44

Contemptist!!

07-03-2005, 17:46

Quote:

Originally Posted by Incognitas

Actually in our school in science they do take the brighter boys(of any ethnic background) and put them into one class away from the girls during year 10 and 11.It works!

The girls will do well whether they are with boys or not but the boys do find girls a distraction(and Russ I'm really not being sexist or racist just pragmatic).

I as a teacher will consider any method if it benefits the students and their future as members of our society.If one way of teaching a subject won't work I'll try another way.If one explanation is not understood then I'll try to rephrase it it so the student can understand.I'll keep doing that until the child understands.

Not everyone does well in mainstream education and there should be a way to accomodate them all.

No. The casualties end up in an FE college and in most cases black youth make progress in a class of all sorts. FE usually picks up school failures and transforms them into success stories. It may be of course these school failures can focus on worthwhile goals, regardless of the ethnicity of the teaching staff. It would be quite wrong to follow the T. Phillips path, after all, how long ago was it that we were being advised that boys generally were performing less well than girls.

me283 · 07-03-2005, 18:23

Bottom line is that under-achieving pupils should a) try harder b) be encouraged to try harder and c) receive extra tuition if necessary.

What disgusts me about this is the reference to black children. I attended a grammar school and there were a lot of black and Asian boys there. The local comprehensive had a lot of white kids. Big deal. When we start looking at the kids as people, and start teaching them as people, then we will sort the problem. As soon as we start blaming it on colour, race, religion, then we have completely missed the point. This is not a race or colour issue. The chap from the CRE should be sacked.

**Maggy** · 07-03-2005, 18:42

Quote:

Originally Posted by Gogogo

No. The casualties end up in an FE college and in most cases black youth make progress in a class of all sorts. FE usually picks up school failures and transforms them into success stories. It may be of course these school failures can focus on worthwhile goals, regardless of the ethnicity of the teaching staff. It would be quite wrong to follow the T. Phillips path, after all, how long ago was it that we were being advised that boys generally were performing less well than girls.

Yes some of ours do go out to FE part time during year 10 and 11.The only benefit I've seen is that when they are out the class is quieter.When they return they are just as unfocused(well on the lessons anyway).Hopefully when they do get out to FE full time they will have more focus.I will add that the proportion of boys to girls involved in this is that more boys go than girls.
__________________

Quote:

Originally Posted by me283

Bottom line is that under-achieving pupils should a) try harder b) be encouraged to try harder and c) receive extra tuition if necessary.

What disgusts me about this is the reference to black children. I attended a grammar school and there were a lot of black and Asian boys there. The local comprehensive had a lot of white kids. Big deal. When we start looking at the kids as people, and start teaching them as people, then we will sort the problem. As soon as we start blaming it on colour, race, religion, then we have completely missed the point. This is not a race or colour issue. The chap from the CRE should be sacked.

Why is it wrong to deal with a particular group that are underachieving?To try and finds ways to motivate them?One size fits all does not work especially in education.

After all should we not embrace all methods of providing an equal education for all?After all we do allow segregation through single sex schools.Isn't that possibly sexist?And yet such choice in enshrined in law.Frankly I'll use whatever works as a teacher.Agreed that we should deal with them as people not ethnic groups but sometimes we may have to make exceptions to any rule IF we are to give everyone a fair chance.

And I think that you'll find that the suggestions you made in your first sentences have already been made and have failed.

The black teenagers that are being referred to here are opting out of the system.They don't see anyway to fit in with society and have already rejected it.Maybe if they were give more contact with male role models that have done well and obtained a good education they might see a point to education.They need to see black success that is not based on sports or entertainment which is what seems to be focused on when such issues are raised.

However instead of dealing with it society will condemn this as racist and a chance to really discuss this issue and do something about it will be lost.

me283 · 07-03-2005, 22:31

Quote:

Originally Posted by Incognitas

__________________

Why is it wrong to deal with a particular group that are underachieving?To try and finds ways to motivate them?One size fits all does not work especially in education.

After all should we not embrace all methods of providing an equal education for all?

And I think that you'll find that the suggestions you made in your first sentences have already been made and have failed.

As has been explained in a different thread, if you discriminate FOR one group, you are discriminating AGAINST every other group. Let's just suppose one of these black kids then goes on to get a job in favour of one of his classmates (black or white) who didn't get the extra special treatment? He then gets on at the detriment of someone else, not because he tried harder, but because more effort was granted to him. What you are supporting is NOT giving everyone an equal chance.

allieyoung666 · 07-03-2005, 22:35

This is one thing I agree on, well done Incognitias!!!!!

me283 · 07-03-2005, 22:40

Quote:

Originally Posted by Incognitas

And I think that you'll find that the suggestions you made in your first sentences have already been made and have failed.

The black teenagers that are being referred to here are opting out of the system.They don't see anyway to fit in with society and have already rejected it.Maybe if they were give more contact with male role models that have done well and obtained a good education they might see a point to education.They need to see black success that is not based on sports or entertainment which is what seems to be focused on when such issues are raised.

However instead of dealing with it society will condemn this as racist and a chance to really discuss this issue and do something about it will be lost.

If they fail, try again, and again; or do you advocate giving up at the first hurdle? That's hardly a "role model" for kids to follow, is it?

Teenagers of ALL creeds and colours opt out of the system. That is a choice that many of them make. It is wrong to mollycoddle them in an attempt to give them an easier start in life than those who buckle down to hard work from day one.

"They need to see black success"? No. They need to see success full stop.

Your suggestion advocates preferential treatment to one particular group - black kids. Whichever way you cut it, that is RACIST, and I think you will find black people feel the same as white people on that point. You are supporting an idea that discriminates against white, Asian, Eastern European and Asian Oriental kids. What happens if there happens to be an Asian boy who is also not doing so well? Is he excluded because he isn't black?

allieyoung666 · 07-03-2005, 22:56

I do not mean to be a damp sponge, the last I had to deal with a works experience, he was a black lad he was such a lovely kid. But he could not read or write, I felt so sorry for him, he wanted to be a nurse. So when I rang up the school and had a grumble at them, I was told that he was a non acheiver and that all he would do was sit at the back of the class and act a clown. But when I was talking to him, he told me he was sat at the back and ignored. So yes, I do agree with Ingcogintias on this one chuck as everyone in life should be able to do what they want to do and not to be ignored!!!!!

**Maggy** · 07-03-2005, 22:56

Quote:

Originally Posted by me283

As has been explained in a different thread, if you discriminate FOR one group, you are discriminating AGAINST every other group. Let's just suppose one of these black kids then goes on to get a job in favour of one of his classmates (black or white) who didn't get the extra special treatment? He then gets on at the detriment of someone else, not because he tried harder, but because more effort was granted to him. What you are supporting is NOT giving everyone an equal chance.

Well everyone agrees that comprehensive education didn't work because you can't treat everyone the exact same.Not all of us are equal all the time.So giving a helping hand to those who are failing to keep up could count as discrimination against those who are bright.Is that what you are saying?

So how do we take certain sections of our societies and provide them with the positive help they need?IF we can't pick them out because it is discrimination how can we help them? or do we just ignore the problem because to be seen to try and do anything about it is discrimination.Then the other side thinks that it is unfair that they don't get equal treatment.

Well yes young white teenage boys are also having a problem in education and have until recently been under achieving.Some thought has been given to helping them and hopefully things are inproving.However a small number of black teenage boys are STILL under achieving,do we just ignore it because to do anything positive is discrimination.

The problem is that it is impossible to discuss anything about racial matters anymore because it just becomes a litany of what is unfair for one group or another when it comes to positive discrimination.Frankly I think we have become too frightened by the race issue to actually solve any of the issues that affects each ethnic group.We tend to leave it to the individual groups to sort out themselves thinking it's none of our business.

Some will come back and bite us if we don't offer a positive discriminatory hand from time to time.Not all the time just once in a while.A recognition that a group is having a hard time.