Does ntl offer a viable product any more?

[orangebird]

Originally Posted by Neil

They are still re-active though (following/copying TW), which surely means that TW are "market Leaders" when it comes to cable BB?

What about Telewest upping their speeds AFTER ntl this time round? Care to give your opinion on that?

Oh....that's ok then-that what "Market Leaders" means, some people get a proper/working direct equivalent to Sky, & some don't?
Also-are you referring to ntl's 'interactive' (EPG/TV Guide) or Sky's proper red button 8 screens on Sky News/multiple camera angles on Sky Sports etc interactive?

Neil, you said that that interactive doesn't work, period. And it's not true, that's the point I was trying to make. I used the red button to vote on BB4. I also used the mutli screens for Tennis etc. Do I look lie the kind of girl that even wants to know if multi camera angles for Sky Sports in general??

Important Question----->Do you get full 'Red Button' interactive on Sky News/Sports for example?

Never looked TBH.

Because I have been told by people in ntl that would know.

Not good enough Neil.

http://www.ukonline.net/8000/



http://www.ukonline.net/8000/llu_exchangelist.php



That's a lot of home & a lot of exchanges.

Add to this Bulldogs already running deal with 4 meg DSL and all your phone line/phone calls costs all in for around £50.00, & you've got a fair few!

The other thing to remember, is that these companies that are unbundling the exchanges don't work on ntl's "Coming Soon" theory, when they say soon, they mean it!!

ntl are market followers, not leaders IMO, & I can't see/think of anything they have done to suggest otherwise?

Yes, I've seen the website for the 8 meg. But like I said before, why don't you show up all hte potential flaws of the deal, like you would with any ntl deal?

You can't compare Bulldog to ntl. The size of the company and the technology are completely different. You don;t have to like ntl Neil, but at least be fair when you compare - which you so are not.

[themelon]

Originally Posted by Neil

Important Question----->Do you get full 'Red Button' interactive on Sky News/Sports for example?

No............

This however isnt ntls fault

Its Skys Fault for being anti competative molopolistic %£$$% and not providing equal services to all subscribers exclusive of platfrom.

ntl tried to get this and Sky tried to charge MORE despite wholesale costs being high already. Sureley if we dont get all of Sky Sports, wholesale costs should be much less!

Sky is again typically exploiting its position and OFCOMS lack of balls.

There is no technical reason why Sky Active isnt on ntl.

Other than a pitiful ploy by Sky to shift more dodgy boxes.

It was the same with Sky Sports Extra...........Cable Subscribers were paying/subsidising for the channel for a good year before it appeared on cable, as Sky new they could temp subscribers on to their platfrom.

Scabby Tactics.........but oh so typical of Sky its no surprise.

[themelon]

Originally Posted by scastle

True Video On Demand
Again, this is a nice facility to have, but not, IMO, as good as a true PVR. But, Homechoice (and Kingston Cable I think) have been offering this service for years. In fact it was demonstrated by BT on Tommorrow's World over ten years ago. And, I believe it's not actually being offered by NTL, but another company using the NTL network. So, technically, NTL can claim they are offering VOD in the same way that BT can say they offer 8Meg ADSL..

Not strictly true...........

On Demand Group who do Front row have invested some money along with Seachange International to help with the necessary Upgrades for VOD, this will be in return for a percentage of the profits made, but essentially its ntls network doing the work.

On Demand also helped set up Kingston and Homechoice VOD, but this is a much larger Scale they have 20000 customers between them............if that?!?

ntl are currently trialing BroadbandTV which can offer server based iTV applications far more compelling that Sky could ever offer, with integration of streaming video, sound, flash, shockwave possible without the limitatiosn of the current STB Coming into play.

IMO VOD is better than a PVR because you dont have to shell out for extra hardware or pay extra subs (which ntl may chose) for certain features unless you use them.

BT cant really claim anything to the 8Mb broadband as its not their equipment doing the job but Easynets............the only BT stuff involved is the shoddy line to your house which will probably be the downfall of the whole thing!!

Incidently didnt Bulldog have a lot of network issues recently due to bandwidth hogs, and a lot of people have been complaining about them?!?

[Neil]

Originally Posted by themelon

TW have a much smaller network and less customers, ntl has had problems with STBs that need changing to.

Agreed-but if ntl were such "Market Leaders", they would have had this wrapped up by now surely?

Originally Posted by themelon

TW Copied ntls recent speed upgrades!

Not so I don't think you'll find.

Originally Posted by themelon

My ntl TV is better than Sky

How?-Do you get all the interactive feature that Sky Digital offers? Can you get a Sky + Equivalent?

Originally Posted by themelon

my ntl Phoneline is better than BT (no crackles that cant be fixed 'ever' apparently and this is the second BT line I have had with this problem)..............what you think on this is PURELEY a matter of opinion and nothing else.

Fair enough.

Originally Posted by themelon

Functionality (usability) is a funny one to be suggested I would actually say there are sections of CR3 FAR more functional than the Sky Dodgyguide like Search and Scan, gaining info on programmes on later, ease of use for ordering PPV, mini tv in EPG instead of lift music, quick on off for Subtitiles. I agree Sky has a better EPG which personally I dont use either way, ntls is too slow, Skys has lift music and you miss watch you watching so essentially both are crap! id ratehr the TV Times. Sky does have some exclusive Interactive but nothing im going to lose sleep over at present.

How does the fact that ntl don't offer what Sky do make them market leaders then?

Originally Posted by themelon

How do you know this, evidence please ?

As I said, it came from within ntl, & for that reason I can't/won't name names, sorry.

Originally Posted by themelon

Very large amount........nonsense!

Not nonsense at all-4 million is a large amount by anyone's standards.

Originally Posted by themelon

UK Online say 4.4 million people have access to these speeds, even then its not garunteed past 2km from the exchange. I live 4km from one of these 'magical' exchanges and cant even recieve 1mb on ADSL because the line BT provide is crap and am unlikely to for the forseeable future........go figure! The day ADSL becomes market leading for me........is the day I eat my own hat!

The fact that it's not available to you has no nearing on the fact that an 8 meg DSL product is is still market leading.

Originally Posted by themelon

At least with ntl if I live on a digital part of their network I will get Broadband at/near to the speeds specified not some second rate 512k service im paying 1Mb prices for!

Same as ADSL though-just because you can get it doesn't mean it will be up to scratch does it?

Originally Posted by themelon

However if you can get this mysterious product.........ie you live on the exchange or you can see it close by........go for it excellent price!!

We agree!

Originally Posted by themelon

ntl is definately viable for me.........its still cheaper than the BT/Sky Equivilent

I think we've been down this road before, & there's little/no difference in the package prices if you have BT line/Sky & an ntl line & Family Pack (for example)

Originally Posted by themelon

and better quality than I would be recieving. Hopefully it will become more viable when VOD is released as this means I can cancel Sky Movies as I always miss whatever I want to watch on there.

You wouldn't miss it with Sky +! But it's ok as that's probably not a "market leading" product is it?

The original question was.....

Does ntl offer a viable product any more?

And I genuinely don't believe they do (compared to Sky) based on my reasoning above.

[Neil]

Originally Posted by orangebird

What about Telewest upping their speeds AFTER ntl this time round? Care to give your opinion on that?

Certainly

ntl's initial speed increase came as a knee jerk reaction to TW's original speed increase, they haven't led the market here, they've just taken TW's idea & made it faster-not market leading IMO.

Originally Posted by orangebird

Neil, you said that that interactive doesn't work, period. And it's not true, that's the point I was trying to make. I used the red button to vote on BB4. I also used the mutli screens for Tennis etc.

But could you if you wanted to? (no)

Originally Posted by orangebird

Do I look lie the kind of girl that even wants to know if multi camera angles for Sky Sports in general??

No!

Originally Posted by orangebird

Never looked TBH.

Perhaps you should try it.

Originally Posted by orangebird

Not good enough Neil.

I though people were against naming ntl associates?
Whether you think it's good enough or not, I'm not gonna place those people's job's in jeopardy-you know as well as I do that ntl would probably sack them for disclosing confidential information, & that I am not prepared to do just to prove to you (anyone actually) that I know, sorry.

Originally Posted by orangebird

Yes, I've seen the website for the 8 meg. But like I said before, why don't you show up all hte potential flaws of the deal, like you would with any ntl deal?

I thought I had-there are cureently exchanges that can't get it, but the 'coming soon' is a reality, not a figment of their imagination a la ntl.

Originally Posted by orangebird

You can't compare Bulldog to ntl. The size of the company and the technology are completely different.

But we are talking about "Market Leaders" here in this discussion, & Bulldog are exactly that. I think they were the 1st ISP to install their own hardware in BT's exchanges, & offer 2 meg DSL, when the other DSL ISPs were waiting from the nod from BT-Now that's market leading!

You don;t have to like ntl Neil, but at least be fair when you compare - which you so are not.

I don't agree-we are talking about market leading, & ntl are not that whatever way you look at it.

They followed TW's speeds increase, their DTV doesn't offer the functionality that Sky's does, they have only just got around to introducing Spam filters on their mail servers (when most other ISPs have had them for yonks), their email 'service' has been poor (to say the least!) for the best part of 18 months, their webspace package is poor compared to what most other ISPs offer (scripts etc)

That's not a market leader, & not a company that offers a viable product anymore-most other providsers offer far more for your money IMO.

[themelon]

Originally Posted by Neil

Agreed-but if ntl were such "Market Leaders", they would have had this wrapped up by now surely?

Not so I don't think you'll find.

How?-Do you get all the interactive feature that Sky Digital offers? Can you get a Sky + Equivalent?

Fair enough.

How does the fact that ntl don't offer what Sky do make them market leaders then?

As I said, it came from within ntl, & for that reason I can't/won't name names, sorry.

Not nonsense at all-4 million is a large amount by anyone's standards.

The fact that it's not available to you has no nearing on the fact that an 8 meg DSL product is is still market leading.

Same as ADSL though-just because you can get it doesn't mean it will be up to scratch does it?

We agree!

I think we've been down this road before, & there's little/no difference in the package prices if you have BT line/Sky & an ntl line & Family Pack (for example)

You wouldn't miss it with Sky +! But it's ok as that's probably not a "market leading" product is it?

The original question was.....

And I genuinely don't believe they do (compared to Sky) based on my reasoning above.

Upgrades take time and money especially when hardwares involved.........hopefully with the next batch of upgrades all the PACE STBs running broadband will be going. Im sure they are in the process of wrapping it up but nothing happens over night, having a larger network makes upgrading a more lengthy process.

Where will I find??

I get most of the Interactive features 'that are worthwhile' that Skys monopoly allows us to have ie the BBCi and Voting etc. I can get a Sky+ equivilent in TIVO or a DVD R which IMO is much better because it not proprietry kit that becomes useless should you swap providers.

How does the fact that Sky dont offer some of the basic usability features ntl do make them market leaders?? IMO they are different methods of getting essentially the same thing NEITHER is a market leader, preference is down to opinion.

I will wait and see what happens regarding speeds, but 2Mb is enough for me for now anyway!

4 million out of 24 million homes in the UK is 17% ish. Not that great ntl passes about 8 million homes, Telewest about 4million so 12 million UK Homes passed by Cable with speeds of 3Mb opposed to 4 million who 'might' get 8Mb.

Its not market leading if some people cant get it though is it? It is to those that can and not to those that cant IMO its not market leading to me because it would be as much use as a chocolate teapot.

Its like me saying I offer a 10mb Internet Connection but only in my house.........does that make me market leading?

Sky+ isnt market leading to me.........mainly because TiVO was there first, TiVO is not proprietry kit. Sky+ would require me to have Sky.

I genuinely believe they do offer a viable, I get the same product at a cheaper price for TV and Phone would cost £50.50 with BT/Sky £49.50 with ntl. faster speeds and genrally very reliable 1 outage in year.

2mb broadband for £24.99 anyone?

[orangebird]

Originally Posted by Neil

<snip>

I thought I had-there are cureently exchanges that can't get it, but the 'coming soon' is a reality, not a figment of their imagination a la ntl.
<snip>

How about the fact that getting 8meg is entirely dependant on the quality of your BT line, and that some punters may only get 4 or 6 meg for the same money? Is that not a bit off? Or is it OK just because it's not ntl?

[etccarmageddon]

Originally Posted by Neil

ntl are market followers, not leaders IMO, & I can't see/think of anything they have done to suggest otherwise?

they followed TW early this year in upping speeds but now they are leading and TW are following.

[themelon]

Originally Posted by Neil

Certainly

ntl's initial speed increase came as a knee jerk reaction to TW's original speed increase, they haven't led the market here, they've just taken TW's idea & made it faster-not market leading IMO.

I thought I had-there are cureently exchanges that can't get it, but the 'coming soon' is a reality, not a figment of their imagination a la ntl.

But we are talking about "Market Leaders" here in this discussion, & Bulldog are exactly that. I think they were the 1st ISP to install their own hardware in BT's exchanges, & offer 2 meg DSL, when the other DSL ISPs were waiting from the nod from BT-Now that's market leading!

I don't agree-we are talking about market leading, & ntl are not that whatever way you look at it.

They followed TW's speeds increase, their DTV doesn't offer the functionality that Sky's does, they have only just got around to introducing Spam filters on their mail servers (when most other ISPs have had them for yonks), their email 'service' has been poor (to say the least!) for the best part of 18 months, their webspace package is poor compared to what most other ISPs offer (scripts etc)

That's not a market leader, & not a company that offers a viable product anymore-most other providsers offer far more for your money IMO.

Well Telewest took ntls idea of making 128k faster or 512k to 600k a few years back then........what a crazy excuse just admit ntl were copied by Telewest last time round.

Coming soon is not a reality for some BT exchanges, it is a figment of imagination BT have been dragging their feet over enabling ADSL exchanges for years, they know some parts of the network cant cope even after an exchange is enabled and dont have plans to resolve these problems.

So is introducing speeds of 1Mb for £17.99 2Mb for £24.99 accross the network for every subscriber who wants it.

Thats pureley opinion.

TW followed ntl age old speed increases, Their DTV does offer the functionality (usability) not features (like all Interactive thanks to Sky monopolistic behavious and OFCOMS lack of balls) infact ntl offer some functionality far better than Sky as mentioned earlier. Which 'all ISPs' Spam filter I know BT dont or Didnt, I had far more crap from my BT closed world account than ntl, 50mb of webspace for free not bad........I dont know of many ISPs that give scripting space for free its a premium product. E-mail again.........its certainally no worse than BT closed world or Connect.

Given my £74.49

Suggest another way I can get

Cheaper line rental
Full DTV Package Sports Movies
2Mb Broadband

Offer me MORE than that for my money.........looks viable to me.

[scrotnig]

My only comment on all of this is the same question I have asked many times but not had a satisfactory answer to.

Earlier this year, Telewest announced a speed increase, ntl followed suit, and were accused of copying them. Fair enough. I'll accept that for the sake of argument.

ntl have now announced a speed increase, and this time Telewest followed suit. Yet again I have been told that ntl are simply copying Telewest. My question, in two parts, is: Why is the exact same situation viewed entirely differently this time round, and how can ntl have been copying Telewest BOTH times?

[themelon]

Originally Posted by Mark B

My only comment on all of this is the same question I have asked many times but not had a satisfactory answer to.

Earlier this year, Telewest announced a speed increase, ntl followed suit, and were accused of copying them. Fair enough. I'll accept that for the sake of argument.

ntl have now announced a speed increase, and this time Telewest followed suit. Yet again I have been told that ntl are simply copying Telewest. My question, in two parts, is: Why is the exact same situation viewed entirely differently this time round, and how can ntl have been copying Telewest BOTH times?

And surely those who take that view will accept Telewest Speed Increases earlier this year were copying Speed Increases ntl introduced on the 512k and 128k services before hand

And the 8Mb service is just and ADSL providers 'kneejerk reaction' to the cable speed increases! With no actual garuntee that 'anyone' will actually recieve the full speed as they quote 'UK Online will allow the user to connect to the service at the maximum speed available to their line'

Mmm I read into that.........you wont recieve the speed unless you live on/next to the exchange. The same as BT Claim people within 5km of the exchange can recieve upto 2Mb yet many on my street 4km from the exchange cannot recieve 1Mb ADSL!

Terrible

[Stuart]

Originally Posted by themelon

Not strictly true...........

On Demand Group who do Front row have invested some money along with Seachange International to help with the necessary Upgrades for VOD, this will be in return for a percentage of the profits made, but essentially its ntls network doing the work.

On Demand also helped set up Kingston and Homechoice VOD, but this is a much larger Scale they have 20000 customers between them............if that?!?

OK. So On Demand have paid for upgrades for VOD. This is different to LLU how exactly? You say NTL's network is doing the work. Up to a point, so is BT's when providing ADSL (even LLU ADSL).

ntl are currently trialing BroadbandTV which can offer server based iTV applications far more compelling that Sky could ever offer, with integration of streaming video, sound, flash, shockwave possible without the limitatiosn of the current STB Coming into play.

I have read about these trials. I can't find a lot of technical information, which is a shame because it looks quite interesting. However, the facilities you mention CAN be quite processor intensive unless you have dedicated hardware to use them. Having said that, if the compression system used for streaming is MPEG 2, then the boxes do have hardware that can be used to decompress that.

Anyway, you totally missed the point of my bit about Interactive. My point was that NTL's current interactive, from a developer's point of view, offers everything Sky's does, but the broadcasters have not implemented it. So, if there is any problem with lack of facilities on NTL interactive, that's entirely the fault of the broadcaster.

IMO VOD is better than a PVR because you dont have to shell out for extra hardware or pay extra subs (which ntl may chose) for certain features unless you use them.

<snip>

I would have to disagree there. VOD is better assuming you like popular programs. If you want to watch something that is less popular (maybe something on the local channel, or one of the more specialist channel), it's entirely possible that VOD will not offer what you want. In this case, PVR is superior.

[Stuart]

Originally Posted by themelon

Sky+ isnt market leading to me.........mainly because TiVO was there first, TiVO is not proprietry kit. Sky+ would require me to have Sky.

I know this wasn't addressed to me, but...

I have Tivo. There are two MAJOR areas where Sky + improves on an NTL + Tivo System.

1) Picture quality. Sky + does not decode/reencode the signal. With Tivo, the fact the the NTL box decodes the signal, then Tivo re-encodes it introduces a quality loss. With the Tivo on Best quality, it is acceptable, but there are compression artifacts noticable on some programs (particularly in areas that are very dark, but not quite black). This happens even with good quality cabling. With Sky +, because there is no decode/re-encoding, you don't get this problem.

2) Recording one channel and watching another. Unless I pay NTL an extra £15 a month (I think) and get another STB (which would make the wiring around my TV even more of a nightmare than it already is), I cannot watch one channel and record another. This, on top of the £15 a month Tivo charge would mean I am paying £30 a month to emulate a facilty that with Sky + would cost me half that.. That's assuming I don't want to record two programmes (which Sky+ with the new software can do out of the box)

anyway, back to the point. No, Sky were not the first to do a PVR (and in some ways, the Tivo is superior, season passes for example). They are the first company to do an entirely digital PVR (no conversion to analogue signals until the viewer watches a programme), the first to offer a PVR that can record one programme while watching another, and the first to offer a PVR that can record two programmes though. In that sense, they ARE the market leaders.

[themelon]

Originally Posted by scastle

OK. So On Demand have paid for upgrades for VOD. This is different to LLU how exactly? You say NTL's network is doing the work. Up to a point, so is BT's when providing ADSL (even LLU ADSL).

I have read about these trials. I can't find a lot of technical information, which is a shame because it looks quite interesting. However, the facilities you mention CAN be quite processor intensive unless you have dedicated hardware to use them. Having said that, if the compression system used for streaming is MPEG 2, then the boxes do have hardware that can be used to decompress that.

Anyway, you totally missed the point of my bit about Interactive. My point was that NTL's current interactive, from a developer's point of view, offers everything Sky's does, but the broadcasters have not implemented it. So, if there is any problem with lack of facilities on NTL interactive, that's entirely the fault of the broadcaster.

I would have to disagree there. VOD is better assuming you like popular programs. If you want to watch something that is less popular (maybe something on the local channel, or one of the more specialist channel), it's entirely possible that VOD will not offer what you want. In this case, PVR is superior.

As far as I know the Equipment (DSLAM etc) in the exchanges is owned by other ISPs and not BT, the only part of an LLU Broadband Connection that is BTs is the line.

I do agree with what you say regarding Interactive entirely true, having worked in iTV technically there is nothing that cant be done on the ntl platform. Platform operators decide not to implement a Liberate Version, this is perhaps where some form of cross compatible iTV application would be useful.

Each persons view of a product or service is down to opinion really, Sky+ would suit me because it locks you to Sky which is something I dont want, which effectively means it is a £149 waste of money should I leave Sky.

With TiVO or a DVDR Its not proprietry kit, so I can used it with Sky, DTT or Cable

With VOD I only get it while I subscribe, or when I order it doesnt have associated costs for equipment I might not use in the future.

Hopefully a Cable PVR will be rented........as buying it would again be pointless incase you moved somewhere else.

[gooner4life]

Originally Posted by Neil

Hmmm...."Market Leading"? That's not how I would describe ntl at all.

Firstly-you won't see those speed increases again next year, & secondly it looks like a v large amount of ADSL exchanges will be able to get 8 meg/£40.00 BB-Now that's market leading......

Looks like is very different to 'can and do' I was told It looks like i could get ADSL but when it came to providing that service it wasnt possible it took BT 3 months to tell me that and Pipex twice that time to refund me for the cost of the Modem and registration charges.

and if Looks like is what impresses people NTL's Cable Network can provide speeds far in excess of 8mb down and thats while its still set at 64QAM and take note the network is able to be switched to 128 or even 256QAM very easily.