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NTL amongst supporters of Illegal P2P?
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Old 15-11-2004, 12:32   #16
Graham F
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Re: NTL amongst supporters of Illegal P2P?

Quote:
Originally Posted by themelon
I dont actually use P2P for whatever illegal purposes but can sympathise with those who do.

As for stealing.........Fat executives are taking something (£10000 0 salaries) without working for it the artists do and only get £4 for every CD, so what goes around comes around.

They need to take a good hard look at the industry as a whole....and tackle the cause of problems.

I would actually say mp3 downloads actually boost the music industry more than damage it, I actually know people who have downloaded a few mp3s, enjoyed them and then gone out and brought the album, as at the end of the day you cant beat the real thing (CD Insert etc). It allows for a try before you buy, as opposed to buying a crap CD and being stuck with it.

Maybe they should look at reducing their prices, making it more competative, I have no doubt the majority would rather the real thing but they will not pay a premium to keep various fat executives in the latest armarni atire.

The same as everything really...........poorly managed making a CD say £5.99 would make sales go through the roof, piracy would become unsustainable and die but while they continue to rip people off piracy will always remain and be sucessful.
so would you sympathise with someone that goes into lets say virgin or hmv and steals a cd because they can't afford it and they don't have a computer?
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Old 15-11-2004, 12:41   #17
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Re: NTL amongst supporters of Illegal P2P?

Quote:
Originally Posted by themelon
I dont actually use P2P for whatever illegal purposes but can sympathise with those who do.

As for stealing.........Fat executives are taking something (£10000 0 salaries) without working for it the artists do and only get £4 for every CD, so what goes around comes around.

They need to take a good hard look at the industry as a whole....and tackle the cause of problems.

I would actually say mp3 downloads actually boost the music industry more than damage it, I actually know people who have downloaded a few mp3s, enjoyed them and then gone out and brought the album, as at the end of the day you cant beat the real thing (CD Insert etc). It allows for a try before you buy, as opposed to buying a crap CD and being stuck with it.

Maybe they should look at reducing their prices, making it more competative, I have no doubt the majority would rather the real thing but they will not pay a premium to keep various fat executives in the latest armarni atire.

The same as everything really...........poorly managed making a CD say £5.99 would make sales go through the roof, piracy would become unsustainable and die but while they continue to rip people off piracy will always remain and be sucessful.
If CDs only cost £1 each you would still get some people saying it was a rip off and continue to download copies of them.

You quite often see people claiming they have thousands of mp3s on their computer, there was a thread on here not long back asking how to organise them on their system. Are these all legal and did they go out and buy copies as a result of downloading them. I bet they have never listened to most of them.

You don't appear to comprehend how many people rely on sales of music for their living. There are far more than the artists themselves and your fat executives. Do you know how much it can cost to rent a retail unit in a prime shopping location, staff it and pay the overheads. A large percentage of the cost is retail margin and anyone selling through the high street and shopping malls needs that margin to survive. Do you want to see the end of high street retail music?
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Old 15-11-2004, 12:41   #18
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Re: NTL amongst supporters of Illegal P2P?

Quote:
Originally Posted by monkeybreath
defendant: "this rolex was a bit expensive, so i stole it instead!"
judge: "are you admitting committing theft?"
defendant: "oh but it doesn't matter because £1000 for a watch is a rip off"
judge: "of course! of you go then... case closed"

hmm... don't see it working somehow!
Actually isnt that what happens currently?

Certainally in this country.

"this rolex was a bit expensive, so i stole it instead!"
judge: "are you admitting committing theft?"
defendant: "oh but it doesn't matter because £1000 for a watch is a rip off, so i robbed it out this geezas house, and he tried to kick me out, I wanna sue him £200000 0 init cause he scratched mi arm and it bled"
judge: "of course! off you go then £200000 0... you might get to do some community service cleaning the grafiti you created if you want, then you can show off your £40000 Saxo to your Chav mates, case closed"
defendant: "cool i can get mi a new body kit for mi saxo insteada that cardboard one, an now I can get a proppa bling Rolex, ya"
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Old 15-11-2004, 12:43   #19
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Re: NTL amongst supporters of Illegal P2P?

Quote:
Originally Posted by themelon
These no doubt play a part (significantly smaller than the artists share and not 60%), but again why are there record executives on £100000 +

Too damn right there is no excuse for theft.........but they are doing it, maybe they should practice what they preach and take a wage cut, actually recieving what they 'earn' post would probably be sub £20000 like most normal
people.
What world are you living in?
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Old 15-11-2004, 12:48   #20
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Re: NTL amongst supporters of Illegal P2P?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Scooby
so would you sympathise with someone that goes into lets say virgin or hmv and steals a cd because they can't afford it and they don't have a computer?

People do it...........and society rightly or wrongly sympathises with it in terms of what punishment they recieve.

Througout society I can fully sympathise with why people steal stuff, because a lot of stuff is way too expensive.

Obviously its up to the individual to decide whether it is right or wrong to take whatever action they decide to take. At the end of the day rightly or wrongly society doesnt seem to punish theft, you steal from a CD store you will probably get a slap on the wrist on any number of occassions from the police.

I can sympathise with why people do it, It doesnt make it right, I might not like those who do it, and I definately wouldnt do it myself.
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Old 15-11-2004, 12:53   #21
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Re: NTL amongst supporters of Illegal P2P?

Quote:
Originally Posted by themelon
People do it...........and society rightly or wrongly sympathises with it in terms of what punishment they recieve.

Througout society I can fully sympathise with why people steal stuff, because a lot of stuff is way too expensive.

Obviously its up to the individual to decide whether it is right or wrong to take whatever action they decide to take. At the end of the day rightly or wrongly society doesnt seem to punish theft, you steal from a CD store you will probably get a slap on the wrist on any number of occassions from the police.

I can sympathise with why people do it, It doesnt make it right, I might not like those who do it, and I definately wouldnt do it myself.


Its simple if you can't afford something you don't get it, why the hell should i work my butt off to get my pay each week to get and do nice things, when you are saying that you don't have a problem with people stealing? so where would you draw the line? If somone burguled your house would you have symphaty with them if they had no money? No you wouldn't so why is stelaing from a shop deemed ok by you?
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Old 15-11-2004, 12:56   #22
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Re: NTL amongst supporters of Illegal P2P?

Downloading music isn't theft (much as the BPI, RIAA etc would have you believe it is), it's copyright infringement.

Stealing a CD from HMV though is Theft as you are taking a physical item.
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Old 15-11-2004, 12:58   #23
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Re: NTL amongst supporters of Illegal P2P?

Quote:
Originally Posted by PC_Arcade
Downloading music isn't theft (much as the BPI, RIAA etc would have you believe it is), it's copyright infringement.

Stealing a CD from HMV though is Theft as you are taking a physical item.
illegal is illegal, but thank you for clarifying that point
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Old 15-11-2004, 13:05   #24
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Re: NTL amongst supporters of Illegal P2P?

Quote:
Originally Posted by ianathuth
If CDs only cost £1 each you would still get some people saying it was a rip off and continue to download copies of them.

You quite often see people claiming they have thousands of mp3s on their computer, there was a thread on here not long back asking how to organise them on their system. Are these all legal and did they go out and buy copies as a result of downloading them. I bet they have never listened to most of them.

You don't appear to comprehend how many people rely on sales of music for their living. There are far more than the artists themselves and your fat executives. Do you know how much it can cost to rent a retail unit in a prime shopping location, staff it and pay the overheads. A large percentage of the cost is retail margin and anyone selling through the high street and shopping malls needs that margin to survive. Do you want to see the end of high street retail music?
You will always get people breaking the law.

Downloading mp3s is like speeding, Its a law that a large percentage of the population break and something that people dont necessarily look down on.

I would always prefer to have a real cd for quality, I have an expensive sound system and recorded Cds dont cut it. Of course some people will never buy a CD but that isnt my problem, it theirs.

Exactly how much money are they going to waste trying to enforce the unenforcable............and ending piracy which has been happening since god knows when, and will continue to happen long into the future. What is the point at throwing money into to the wind, when they could reduce the prices and make their product more atractive to the average consumer.

Renting a retail unit.........can cost a fortune but its generally companies such as HMV or Virgin (never ever buy CDs from here as they are at least £3 more than Tesco or Asda) that rent these spaces, a large proportion of advertising is done by HMV, Virgin, Asda, Tesco, Woolworths, how many adverts for albums do you actually see that arent advertising a shop to purchase it, not many personally.

Personally im not that fussed about high street music retailers, if they rip us off, they will go bust, they will need to examine themselves and make themselves more competative to survive. At least Tesco and Asda are pushing CD Prices down to £8.99 which proves prices can be lower.

All a lot of companies need to do is fire a few pen pushing executives and they will save millions a year.
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Old 15-11-2004, 13:11   #25
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Re: NTL amongst supporters of Illegal P2P?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Scooby


Its simple if you can't afford something you don't get it, why the hell should i work my butt off to get my pay each week to get and do nice things, when you are saying that you don't have a problem with people stealing? so where would you draw the line? If somone burguled your house would you have symphaty with them if they had no money? No you wouldn't so why is stelaing from a shop deemed ok by you?

It doesnt make it right.

But sureley you can undertand why people steal? I can Sympathise with why people do it, its easy, its not punished very harshly.

Maybe if laws were stricter in this country it would remove the temptation for people to steal but thats a different matter! If you were not as fortunate as you probably are would you not be tempted to find a easy way out.

If somebody burguled my house I would like to be there to beat the hell out of them, but unfortuantely that illegal (probably more so that theft) too!!

I used to 'unfortunately' work in a shop........whilst there you would see the same shoplifters being caught time and time again (generally part of the local tramp population), its simple for them to do, if they get away with it, they get a free bottle, if not they get to spend the day at a police station.

I dont think mp3 downloads are necessarily because people are poor, they are often for trial or because of the changing mediums in the world.

Some people use a media centre for everything and downloading music is the most conveinient method, until recently there havent been any/many legal sites that allow this, now napster and I-Tunes do.

The record industry needs to wake up, its living in the past, it will end up killing itself if it doesnt watch it.
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Old 15-11-2004, 13:20   #26
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Re: NTL amongst supporters of Illegal P2P?

themelon, what you have to consider is that most of the population of this country do not have internet access. Whilst outlets such as Woolworths and the supermarkets sell CDs they do not stock a very wide range and if they don't stock it then tough. What the high street specialist retailer does is carry a much wider range with facilities to listen before you buy and the ability to order products not in stock.

It is very expensive to rent retail space. Some ten years ago we were paying over £250,00 0 a year to rent a small unit in the Lakeside shopping centre, with service charges, rates, etc on top of this. If you took a PC game retailing for £49.99 including VAT it cost us £25 ex vat to purchase this. It may seem a big profit margin but it was needed to make the business viable.
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Old 15-11-2004, 13:20   #27
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Re: NTL amongst supporters of Illegal P2P?

Quote:
Originally Posted by ianathuth
You quite often see people claiming they have thousands of mp3s on their computer, there was a thread on here not long back asking how to organise them on their system. Are these all legal and did they go out and buy copies as a result of downloading them. I bet they have never listened to most of them.
Are you saying anyone with a big CD collection is also a thief? I know a lot of people with BIG CD collections. And yes, a lot of them have converted them to MP3s to ease of listening AND to listen to on iPods (and other MP3 players). You do seem to have a habit of accusing people of illegal activities with no evidence.
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Old 15-11-2004, 13:29   #28
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Re: NTL amongst supporters of Illegal P2P?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Hans Gruber
Are you saying anyone with a big CD collection is also a thief? I know a lot of people with BIG CD collections. And yes, a lot of them have converted them to MP3s to ease of listening AND to listen to on iPods (and other MP3 players). You do seem to have a habit of accusing people of illegal activities with no evidence.
If you read what you have quoted from me you will notice that I have not accused anyone of illegal activities but simply asked the question of whether they are legal. I know the answer and you know the answer.
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Old 15-11-2004, 13:36   #29
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Re: NTL amongst supporters of Illegal P2P?

Quote:
Originally Posted by ianathuth
themelon, what you have to consider is that most of the population of this country do not have internet access. Whilst outlets such as Woolworths and the supermarkets sell CDs they do not stock a very wide range and if they don't stock it then tough. What the high street specialist retailer does is carry a much wider range with facilities to listen before you buy and the ability to order products not in stock.

It is very expensive to rent retail space. Some ten years ago we were paying over £250,00 0 a year to rent a small unit in the Lakeside shopping centre, with service charges, rates, etc on top of this. If you took a PC game retailing for £49.99 including VAT it cost us £25 ex vat to purchase this. It may seem a big profit margin but it was needed to make the business viable.

If people want to pay a premium to shop there then fine, but I just want what I want for the cheapest price.

Maybe the record retailers need to question why shopping space is such a rip off too, maybe move the specialist stores out of 'Prime' shopping locations into their own units in seperate locations. (what exactly defines a pime location for shopping now, why is an out of town shopping complex with 20 shops more dificult to reach by car or public transport than one with 1 shop)

Too many businesses in this country are afraid to break the mould and all follow along as sheep offering substandard services at a premium prices.

Umm I wonder how many tiers of pointless management each of these stores has, when I used to work for a Supermarket Chain (which to its credit has recently restructured greatly) the amount of 'pointless managers' was untrue, an area manager, area director, a regional manager, regional director, divisional manager, divisional director each also had a PA and company car.........I imagine most large retail chains have similar structures of needless high paid management positions.

This Supermarket has infact streamlined all these postions into one............the regional director, so now one person works a bit harder and actually earns their £150000 salary. The company is saving probably the best part of £2 million a year, which it can pass on as better pricing to the customers.
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Old 15-11-2004, 13:37   #30
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Re: NTL amongst supporters of Illegal P2P?

Just out of interest wasn't this thread about somethign completely different from the legalities or otherwise of downloading things on P2P. We all know the vast majority of things floating around P2P networks are illegal, isn't that all we need?

If ntl consciously advertise on ED2k website I think it's pretty clear why is it not? Same reason all advertising is done, to get more customers on board.

Personally in light of the newly coming capped tiers I find it mildly hilarious, especially considering ISPs general dislike for P2P traffic in large quantities, then again I'm an engineer, not a salesbot
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