[Update] The UK votes to leave the EU

[Mr K]

Does anyone love Dave any longer? The orange face paint and brill creamed hair must be a turn on for someone? Maybe Miss Piggy?

[Big Brian]

Originally Posted by martyh

Cameron has finally decided to tackle the threat of pensioners voting out by threatening their state pensions .In order to close the financial black hole created by leaving he would have to look at cutting pensions

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/opinion/2...s-dear-if-fun/

I heard him on Andrew Marr and he was spouting verbal diahorrea as usual. He can't interfere or cut them as he promised to look after them as part of his election manifesto.

[heero_yuy]

Threatening pensions would be electoral suicide. Just another lie/bluff by an increasingly desperate stay campaign.

Dave is toast whatever the result is.

Originally Posted by Big Brian

I heard him on Andrew Marr and he was spouting verbal diahorrea as usual. He can't interfere or cut them as he promised to look after them as part of his election manifesto.

He promised a lot of stuff as part of his manifesto....

[Julian]

Rather than spouting bolleaux about how bad it might be outside the eu, has there been ANY statement about how good it will be to stay in the eu?

Anything?

Anywhere?

[Osem]

Just take a look at the EU - Greek economy, massive unemployment (especially youth) , right wing popularity, growing border tensions, social unrest etc. etc. Regardless of anything else, these are the facts about the club.

---------- Post added at 15:11 ---------- Previous post was at 15:11 ----------

Originally Posted by martyh

He promised a lot of stuff as part of his manifesto....

He promised a lot of stuff in February which went the same way...

Originally Posted by Julian

Rather than spouting bolleaux about how bad it might be outside the eu, has there been ANY statement about how good it will be to stay in the eu?

Anything?

Anywhere?

I think this is one of the most unfair arguments you can direct at Remain and it was the same tactic that the Nationalists in Scotland used. I mean what was so good about staying in the Union for the Scots?

If you're arguing for keeping what you have then the arguments will largely be about what you'll lose rather than what you'll gain.

By the time the 23rd gets here I doubt any section of our society will not have had some threat implied it's **** politics from lazy and inept politicians and I think it has the opposite effect that they hope for. Most of the people I know have not reacted well to remains negative campaigning and it's pushed people more towards leave, out of my social circle of 40 now 27 of us are definite leave, 4 undecided and 9 still for remain but they are less enthusiastic then they were and if remain don't adopt a more positive stance I think 2 of them will swap over just because they loathe being told what to do.

The question of economic consequences if we stay in the EU is not being discussed by anyone on remain really they talk in positives but the few times I've seen them asked about the deep rooted economic problems within the EU they just ignore and change subject.

Originally Posted by RizzyKing

By the time the 23rd gets here I doubt any section of our society will not have had some threat implied it's **** politics from lazy and inept politicians and I think it has the opposite effect that they hope for. Most of the people I know have not reacted well to remains negative campaigning and it's pushed people more towards leave, out of my social circle of 40 now 27 of us are definite leave, 4 undecided and 9 still for remain but they are less enthusiastic then they were and if remain don't adopt a more positive stance I think 2 of them will swap over just because they loathe being told what to do.

Everyone says this but the reason politicians use negative campaigning is because it works. People may resent negative campaigning but they don't tend to decide important votes based on protest. Realistically people will believe what they want to believe anyway, you say it's pushed people towards Leave but Leave have had negative campaigning too. Turkey joining the EU being the biggest one. Ian Duncan Smith said your pensions would be cut weeks ago: http://www.thisismoney.co.uk/money/p...ion-funds.html and then there was the 'rape attacks' thing from Farage.

The difference, Vote Leave campaigners would say, is that these are true whereas Remain is false. That isn't then an objection to a negative campaign but one that isn't telling the truth. However Remain would say the same of Leave. That Turkey isn't about the join the EU, that the EU isn't going to take your pension and that we do still control our borders.

If the anti-establishment mood is directed at Remain now then wait until Leave wins. If leaving doesn't fulfil the economic boost they say will come, if wages for the working class don't rise, if the all the extra money for the NHS doesn't materialise or worse there is actually a recession then the reaction will be toxic.

It may be more positive to promise people the earth but that doesn't mean it will come true. Salmond and company promised a Scotland where education would be free, pensions would rise, the NHS would get more money and inequality would be reduced. One year later it turned out the scaremongers were right when the oil priced tanked. Scotland would have been in a financial crisis and certainly would not have been able to afford the utopian vision promised to them by the 'positive' Yes campaign.

People should vote on what they think is best not how much they like the sound of what is being promised.

[denphone]

Well according to the latest NCP’s polls the Brexit camp could be set for defeat come the night of the 23rd.

http://www.ncpolitics.uk/uk-eu-referendum/

[Julian]

Originally Posted by Damien

I think this is one of the most unfair arguments you can direct at Remain and it was the same tactic that the Nationalists in Scotland used. I mean what was so good about staying in the Union for the Scots?

If you're arguing for keeping what you have then the arguments will largely be about what you'll lose rather than what you'll gain.

Fair point Damien.

I would say the fear for a lot of brexiteers is that they don't like the way the club is being run.
Where is the " it will be better " positivity from Remain?

[papa smurf]

Originally Posted by denphone

Well according to the latest NCP’s polls the Brexit camp could be set for defeat come the night of the 23rd.

http://www.ncpolitics.uk/uk-eu-referendum/

End of EU rule FINALLY in sight: Leave camp take 19-POINT lead as Britons flock to Brexit

http://www.express.co.uk/news/politi...s-flock-Brexit

it all depends on who's doing the poll and who's paying for it

[Big Brian]

Originally Posted by papa smurf

End of EU rule FINALLY in sight: Leave camp take 19-POINT lead as Britons flock to Brexit

http://www.express.co.uk/news/politi...s-flock-Brexit

it all depends on who's doing the poll and who's paying for it

The question is how can these polls be so far apart? What we need is an independent one. It's clear so far here that if our poll reflected the mood of the country that 19% figure is not so far fetched.

Indeed, and that poll was commissioned by the Bruges Group, formed in honour of Margaret Thatcher's famous speech in that town, in which she said, "willing and active cooperation between independent sovereign states is the best way to build a successful European Community. To try to suppress nationhood and concentrate power at the centre of a European conglomerate would be highly damaging and would jeopardise the objectives we seek to achieve."

If the arrogant elite in Brussels had heeded her words, we might not be where we are now.

Nevertheless, my point in this instance is simply that their poll is suspiciously in line with their own highly Eurosceptic views. I would be interested to see exactly how their questions were phrased and in which order they were asked.

Market research will always deliver the result the client wants as they frame the questions and the conditions such as where to poll and who to poll that's why i take very little notice of polls and just vote how i want. I still think remain will edge it although i am hearing more and more talk about supporting brexit i just think in those few seconds on their own in the voting booth many will remember all the economic horror stories and vote remain.