Brexit (Old)

[Mr K]

Originally Posted by pip08456

I take it Mr_K that you expect the EU to accept the details in the white paper. If so dream on, it won't happen.

As I said (perhaps) thousands of posts ago Article 50 gives one option on trade. You leave, you're out. That does not preclude a future trade deal presumably during the 2yr transiion preiod. There is no such thing as hard or soft brexit. There is only brexit.

Well Barnier has made positive noises about it, and May met Merkel this week. Its almost as if they've given their ok already. Doubtless they'll be some detail but the main part of the deal seems to be done, if anything we might have to give more as we are in a position of weakness, and keep changing 'red lines' and the EU hasn't budged an inch.

[1andrew1]

Originally Posted by Mick

Let's not forget here... ALL EU Member States have to agree, if one member objects, the deal on offer from May is rejected. There is now several EU States that are becoming opposed to everything the EU stands for, not surprising when it is a corrupted entity, but still, with the likes of Poland and Italy, let's hope these countries say no, because what's being offered is not actually Brexit.

Have you now reached the end of your deliberations on the White Paper, Mick? I know that you were reserving judgment; is the above now your judgment?

I think that any deal will be sweetened with money and that will tip it for the countries you mention v a clean Brexit where the financial sums would presumably be limited to that required by law and reputation.

Originally Posted by Mr K

Well Barnier has made positive noises about it, and May met Merkel this week. Its almost as if they've given their ok already. Doubtless they'll be some detail but the main part of the deal seems to be done, if anything we might have to give more as we are in a position of weakness, and keep changing 'red lines' and the EU hasn't budged an inch.

I think you are being deliberately obtuse to suggest Barnier and Merkel are the sole decision makers here, they are not - Barnier is EU's mouth piece, he has to go back to Brussels and get every EU Member State agreement on the deal, only takes one country to veto it and the deal is effectively dead.

---------- Post added at 13:36 ---------- Previous post was at 13:16 ----------

Originally Posted by 1andrew1

Have you now reached the end of your deliberations on the White Paper, Mick? I know that you were reserving judgment; is the above now your judgment?

I think that any deal will be sweetened with money and that will tip it for the countries you mention v a clean Brexit where the financial sums would presumably be limited to that required by law and reputation.

Yes I have and I have come to the stark conclusion that it is not Brexit.

It is Bremain for sure.

Us Brexiteers will not stand for this rejection of Democracy, we will revolt and riot if necessary, let the revolt begin en masse, you Remainers may have had your #StopBrexit marches and protests over the last two years but I consider this to be war, did you Remainers think we should just lie down should the Democratic result of the referendum, not be enacted exactly as we voted for?

Originally Posted by 1andrew1

Have you now reached the end of your deliberations on the White Paper, Mick? I know that you were reserving judgment; is the above now your judgment?.

The White Paper hasn't been published yet.

[1andrew1]

Originally Posted by Mick

Yes I have and I have come to the stark conclusion that it is not Brexit.

It is Bremain for sure.

Us Brexiteers will not stand for this rejection of Democracy, we will revolt and riot if necessary, let the revolt begin en masse, you Remainers may have had your #StopBrexit marches and protests over the last two years but I consider this to be war, did you Remainers think we should just lie down should the Democratic result of the referendum, not be enacted exactly as we voted for?

Do you want a referendum on the final deal then?

---------- Post added at 13:54 ---------- Previous post was at 13:52 ----------

Originally Posted by Damien

The White Paper hasn't been published yet.

My bad, my original phrasing was along the lines of "From what you've read about the White Paper..."

[nomadking]

Under the proposals, yet to be presented to the EU, there would be a free trade area for industrial and agricultural goods, based on a "common rule book" and a "combined customs territory".

A "common rule book" on which we would have no say whatsoever.

How would the Facilitated Customs Arrangement (FCA) work?
All imported goods would be charged the UK tariff at the border, rather than the EU rate. Goods would then be tracked – and if they were sent on to the Continent, then the EU tariff would be charged and the money passed on to Brussels.

As this is all meant to allow a TWO-WAY flow of goods, I assume that the EU would also have to track goods and if sent to the UK, the UK tariff charged and the money sent to the UK. Can't see that happening.

Originally Posted by 1andrew1

Do you want a referendum on the final deal then?

No because we have already had a referendum with a result of leaving the EU, this means complete departure from every aspect of it. I don't know how many more times I have to say that.

The question on the ballot paper did not ask if we should partially remain in the EU, it was either leave or remain, leave had over a million more votes.

[1andrew1]

Originally Posted by Mick

No because we have already had a referendum with a result of leaving the EU, this means complete departure from every aspect of it. I don't know how many more times I have to say that.

The question on the ballot paper did not ask if we should partially remain in the EU, it was either leave or remain, leave had over a million more votes.

Maybe James Cleverly's article will make you reconsider? He's a Brexiter.

We Brexiteers have had to accept compromises – but here’s why the Chequers proposal is a workable plan
The first point that Gavin Barwell, the Prime Minister’s Chief of Staff, made was that we would be leaving the EU. We would be leaving the jurisdiction of the European Court of Justice. We would no longer paying multiple billions of pounds a year membership fees. And we would be taking back control of who can live and work in the UK.
This means that the big three issues that underpinned the Brexit vote would be honoured; sovereignty, immigration control and money.
Over 17.4 million people voted to Leave the EU. Naturally there will be a multitude of reasons why people voted Leave, but this Government’s proposal addresses the issues that were explicit in the referendum campaign on both sides – Remain and Leave.

https://brexitcentral.com/brexiteers...workable-plan/

[OLD BOY]

Originally Posted by 1andrew1

Maybe James Cleverly's article will make you reconsider? He's a Brexiter.

https://brexitcentral.com/brexiteers...workable-plan/

It's the customs arrangements that I am most concerned about. I am reserving my judgement until I know more about that.

It is essential that we have the ability to trade with the rest of the world on terms acceptable to us. Anything less would be a betrayal.

The room for maneouvre lies in the arrangements we make for customs in relation to goods to and from the EU. If that can be kept separate from our trade with the rest of the world, we will have a good basis to proceed with Theresa May's plan.

If the EU reject this proposal, it will be academic anyway and we revert to WTO rules. That suits me just fine.

Originally Posted by 1andrew1

Maybe James Cleverly's article will make you reconsider? He's a Brexiter.

https://brexitcentral.com/brexiteers...workable-plan/

Nope, no compromises. One option is on the table only - that is to leave, you don't offer a democratic process, ask the people to vote and then ignore that vote because those in power don't like the answer given.

[OLD BOY]

Originally Posted by 1andrew1

Please can you help with the links that reinforce this statement, OB? Dave had plenty from various sources saying the opposite so it would be good for people to read the other side's view as well to get a full picture.
Many thanks.

Andrew, this is a discussion forum and we don't have to justify every statement we make with a link. You can Google this just as much as I can.

However, here's one I agree with.

https://www.capitalandconflict.com/b...ood-bad-trade/

[heero_yuy]

Quote from Mick:


Nope, no compromises. One option is on the table only - that is to leave, you don't offer a democratic process, ask the people to vote and then ignore that vote because those in power don't like the answer given.

[OLD BOY]

Originally Posted by Mick

Nope, no compromises. One option is on the table only - that is to leave, you don't offer a democratic process, ask the people to vote and then ignore that vote because those in power don't like the answer given.

If Theresa May's White Paper addresses my concerns over free trade, I am prepared to be persuaded of the benefits of this compromise. After all, the main gripe of Remainers is the damage to our trade with the EU that they see as an inevitable consequence of Brexit.

If this deal allows us to trade effectively with the rest of the world outside of EU regulations, prevents the free movement of people, brings back our sovereignty, whilst maintaining favourable trading arrangements with the EU, what's not to like? We would be in keeping with the voters wishes in that we leave the EU, but without damaging EU trade.

The EU can take that or leave it. I don't care either way. Both options can be made to work for Britain.

[pip08456]

It is pointless being persueded by this compromise ATM as it needs the EU to agree. At present I cannot see them accepting it.

What I would like to see is any remainer or brexiter point me to where article 50 allows for this compromise. I'm willing to be educated.

[OLD BOY]

Originally Posted by pip08456

It is pointless being persueded by this compromise ATM as it needs the EU to agree. At present I cannot see them accepting it.

What I would like to see is any remainer or brexiter point me to where article 50 allows for this compromise. I'm willing to be educated.

Frankly, I hope they don't accept it and we go the WTO route. At least we will be able to say we tried.