Brexit (Old)

[ianch99]

Originally Posted by Pierre

Well done, you’ve finally understood.

I have but you clearly have not.

It is the blind, Brexit at all costs attitude like yours that is making the country a laughing stock.

Originally Posted by Sephiroth

On that Northern Ireland point, I'd just like to bring to the Remainers' attention what's really going on.

Given that neither the UK nor Ireland are going to erect a border (that's their policy), why are we bothered with a backstop? The EU are lying through their teeth that they wish to protect the GFA (which doesn't mention the border).

What do you do about goods coming in and out of Ireland (and the EU) if there is no border and we're not in a Customs Union?

[ianch99]

Originally Posted by Sephiroth

No I'm not. At the centre of this lies the electorate - be it Referendum or Election. They'll grumble and whinge whenever they want to

I'm sorry they are fundamentally different and always will be.

[Pierre]

There is no Brexit at all costs attitude.

There is just Brexit. There has always just been Brexit.

We’ve had, Hard Brexit, Soft Brexit, Jobs First Brexit, you name it. But sticking any prefix or suffix to the word to try and make it something that you can to shape to a meaning you can live with, is pointless.

As May said from the outset. Brexit is Brexit.

---------- Post added at 12:50 ---------- Previous post was at 12:49 ----------

Originally Posted by ianch99

I'm sorry they are fundamentally different and always will be.

That’s right, one is once in a generation, we just did it, our Kids can have the next one.

[ianch99]

Originally Posted by Pierre

There is no Brexit at all costs attitude.

There is just Brexit. There has always just been Brexit.

We’ve had, Hard Brexit, Soft Brexit, Jobs First Brexit, you name it. But sticking any prefix or suffix to the word to try and make it something that you can to shape to a meaning you can live with, is pointless.

As May said from the outset. Brexit is Brexit.

You have my point far better than I could have. Thank you ...

Originally Posted by Pierre

That’s right, one is once in a generation, we just did it, our Kids can have the next one.

Oh yes, the generation that overwhelmingly do not want it.

As John Major says:

"It will damage our national and personal wealth, and may seriously hamper our future security. It may even, over time, break up our United Kingdom. It will most definitely limit the prospects of our young.

"And – once this becomes clear – I believe those who promised what will never be delivered will have much to answer for. They persuaded a deceived population to vote to be weaker and poorer.

"That will never be forgotten – nor forgiven."

Originally Posted by ianch99

There is large part of this country who believe that a vote run by Criminals, lead by Liars and Political Charlatans, based on deceit & misinformation needs validating in light of the reality only now being faced by the country.

There is a large part of what again ?

How do you know this - asked all the country have you ?

It's utter rubbish.

You're a hypocrite accusing folk of deceit when you, is trying to engage in deceit yourself, by engaging in this fallacy, that by telling the rest of us that the country needs some kind of validation - no it does not, nor has it asked for it!

The country was asked once in 2016 and it responded, it decided to leave the EU, despite the LIES on both sides, yes both sides of the campaigns, it's all one sided rubbish with "some" of you Remainers, conveniently forgetting the lies told also from the Remain camp, they played the same rules of deceit, so don't come that rubbish about it being on just the leave side only, it was not!

The country was asked again, kind of, via the Snap Election in 2017, 80% of the electorate decided to go for Parties that committed to honouring the decision to leave the EU. Several parties went on the assertion that they would reverse brexit or hold a second vote on leaving the EU, these parties failed miserably to muster up the "will" to stay in the EU.

The decision does not need validating via a losers vote being requested by a minority and that is exactly what this is!

[Stuart]

Actually, IIRC, Labour hadn't officially committed to either Brexit or Remain at the election, merely stating they required 6 conditions to be met to allow Brexit to go ahead. So, you actually had one party that stated it was behind brexit, and one that was not clear on whether it was or not (and is still really evading that question, although we all know they support Brexit). As for the other parties, IMO, our political system makes it difficult for smaller parties to prosper in general elections. That said, the Liberal Democrats have done well from time to time in previous elections.


And surely if *either* side lied, that should be enough to call the result of the referendum into question?

[ianch99]

Originally Posted by OLD BOY

However, considering the Angua principle, it would appear that your mind is closed to any pro-Brexit article or response, despite this option having been selected by the British electorate.

Not very democratic of you, old chap.

Quite the contrary, I am open to discussing pro-Brexit articles. Please can you share some authoritative articles and we can see what evidence and information they base their conclusions on.

About the democratic bit: your certainty is predicated on the assumption that your beliefs and wishes are correct and there is no possibility of you being wrong.

Well I am sorry to disappoint. History is littered with cases where democracies have been duped into making what, retrospectively, would now be considered the wrong choice. For example, only yesterday, Brazil elected a far right candidate who:

Jair Bolsonaro: Far-right candidate wins Brazil poll

He has the past defended the killing of opponents to the country's former military regime and said he is "in favour of dictatorship".

However critics are worried by his praise of Brazil's former dictatorship, and by his comments on race, women and homosexuality.

In one infamous incident in 2015 he told a fellow lawmaker she was too ugly to rape.

One of his flagship policies is to restore security by relaxing gun laws and suggested that "every honest citizens" should be able to own a gun.

He has promised to reduce state intervention in the economy and indicated that Brazil could pull out of the 2015 Paris Agreement on climate change.

Democratic ... yes, certainly. Desirable, certainly not.

[papa smurf]

Originally Posted by ianch99

Quite the contrary, I am open to discussing pro-Brexit articles. Please can you share some authoritative articles and we can see what evidence and information they base their conclusions on.

About the democratic bit: your certainty is predicated on the assumption that your beliefs and wishes are correct and there is no possibility of you being wrong.

Well I am sorry to disappoint. History is littered with cases where democracies have been duped into making what, retrospectively, would now be considered the wrong choice. For example, only yesterday, Brazil elected a far right candidate who:

Jair Bolsonaro: Far-right candidate wins Brazil poll



Democratic ... yes, certainly. Desirable, certainly not.

he achieved 55.13% compared to 44.87% achieved by his opponent.
Democratic.... yes,certainly. Desirable 55.13% say it certainly is for them.

[Pierre]

Originally Posted by Stuart

Actually, IIRC, Labour hadn't officially committed to either Brexit or Remain at the election, merely stating they required 6 conditions to be met to allow Brexit to go ahead. So, you actually had one party that stated it was behind brexit, and one that was not clear on whether it was or not (and is still really evading that question, although we all know they support Brexit). As for the other parties, IMO, our political system makes it difficult for smaller parties to prosper in general elections. That said, the Liberal Democrats have done well from time to time in previous elections.


And surely if *either* side lied, that should be enough to call the result of the referendum into question?

Labour had the tests yes, but first and foremost they said the referendum result must be honoured.

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-39665835

Nobody knows what their position is now, least of all them

---------- Post added at 16:46 ---------- Previous post was at 16:42 ----------

Originally Posted by ianch99

About the democratic bit: your certainty is predicated on the assumption that your beliefs and wishes are correct and there is no possibility of you being wrong.

Well I am sorry to disappoint. History is littered with cases where democracies have been duped into making what, retrospectively, would now be considered the wrong choice. For example, only yesterday, Brazil elected a far right candidate who:

Jair Bolsonaro: Far-right candidate wins Brazil poll



Democratic ... yes, certainly. Desirable, certainly not.

But the beauty of a Democracy is the freedom to make mistakes. Not that I’m saying Brexit is a mistake, only time will tell.

I’d rather live in a country that has the power to vote in, and out, far right candidates, than one that didn’t.

Brexit aside the Brazil result is quite worrying and it's a good thing about the UK that these people find it so hard to get anywhere.

[OLD BOY]

Originally Posted by ianch99

Mmmmm ... *thinks* do I reply with the same childlike name calling or try and debate like adult *thinks*

Ok, let's try the grown up route (again): you are so wrong on this count. Trying to equate a supposed once-a-generation referendum with a 5 yearly General Election is just daft. You are comparing apples with oranges and saying they are the same.

There is large part of this country who believe that a vote run by Criminals, lead by Liars and Political Charlatans, based on deceit & misinformation needs validating in light of the reality only now being faced by the country.

Christ, Ian, you are describing the general poulation!

I hope you are perfect.

[ianch99]

Originally Posted by OLD BOY

[/B]

Christ, Ian, you are describing the general poulation!

I hope you are perfect.

Far from it but at least I don't try and change the political and economic future of an entire country of 60+ million people without a plan!

---------- Post added at 17:38 ---------- Previous post was at 17:34 ----------

Originally Posted by Pierre

But the beauty of a Democracy is the freedom to make mistakes. Not that I’m saying Brexit is a mistake, only time will tell.

I’d rather live in a country that has the power to vote in, and out, far right candidates, than one that didn’t.

On this we agree. Democracy is based on informed consent. Now we are close to being informed, we should consent.

[OLD BOY]

Originally Posted by Damien

What do you do about goods coming in and out of Ireland (and the EU) if there is no border and we're not in a Customs Union?

How do you forge trade deals if you are in the Customs Union?

---------- Post added at 18:22 ---------- Previous post was at 18:16 ----------

Originally Posted by ianch99

Democratic ... yes, certainly. Desirable, certainly not.

You seem to position yourself on the opposite side of every democratic vote.

That says a lot about your opinions, which seem to be against what the majority think. Not surprising really, looking at your posts.

---------- Post added at 18:24 ---------- Previous post was at 18:22 ----------

Originally Posted by ianch99

Far from it but at least I don't try and change the political and economic future of an entire country of 60+ million people without a plan!

---------- Post added at 17:38 ---------- Previous post was at 17:34 ----------



On this we agree. Democracy is based on informed consent. Now we are close to being informed, we should consent.

Once again, the choice is between the EU deal that we get and a hard Brexit.

[ianch99]

Originally Posted by OLD BOY

That says a lot about your opinions, which seem to be against what the majority think. Not surprising really, looking at your posts

What majority is this?

I have explained my reasoning about your "democratic vote" ..

---------- Post added at 19:27 ---------- Previous post was at 19:25 ----------

Originally Posted by OLD BOY

Once again, the choice is between the EU deal that we get and a hard Brexit.

You forgot the Remain option