Hamas Israel War

Originally Posted by jfman

I think you'll find I did condemn it Chris - merely not using the spineless rhetoric that we are required to accompany it 'Israel has a right to defend herself' that is universally used to censor any debate that attributes the cause of the ongoing conflict to the actions of both sides now, both sides in the past and ultimately both sides in the future.

The requirement frames the debate immediately, and there was enough of that going on from the very first post.

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Hang on have the Israelis killed more children in seven days than Russia have in eighteen months? Dear god. By their own admission they've only just gotten started.

I've definitely condemned Russian activity and underlined the need for a peaceful solution so no particular concern on this front. I'm equally not a politician acting as some kind of moral arbiter of which military causes are just and which are not.

Your prevarications and talking around the points raised remind me of some friends of mine who were in the CPGB in the mid-80s - you have been vehement in this thread about why people should be condemning (quite rightly) the injuring and killing of innocent children, but you haven’t said a word in the Ukraine thread about the same actions carried out by the Russians, and your definition of a "peaceful" solution in Ukraine is letting the Russians keep all the territory they’ve invaded in this conflict and in 2014, allowing them to rebuild their military capabilities and do the same thing again.

[jfman]

Originally Posted by Hugh

Your prevarications and talking around the points raised remind me of some friends of mine who were in the CPGB in the mid-80s - you have been vehement in this thread about why people should be condemning (quite rightly) the injuring and killing of innocent children, but you haven’t said a word in the Ukraine thread about the same actions carried out by the Russians, and your definition of a "peaceful" solution in Ukraine is letting the Russians keep all the territory they’ve invaded in this conflict and in 2014, allowing them to rebuild their military capabilities and do the same thing again.

My point in the other thread is that the “fight for every inch” position is not sustainable - something that it patently is not and more so now given one of America’s genuine allies will be dipping the same stockpiles (of weapons and money) that Zelensky needs. I’m more than happy to discuss that on that thread.

Two nation states at war is a palpably different scenario from what we see today. Regardless, I’ve been clear and consistent about civilian deaths and war crimes in all conflicts as unwelcome although arguably inevitable.

However what Israel are doing so brazenly is on a scale beyond what we have seen elsewhere.

Yet we are all dutifully expected to bow down and reiterate her right to defend herself every time the conflict is mentioned, when legitimate defence probably expired on Monday or Tuesday. Something that could reasonably be anticipated by anyone who parroted it last weekend and seen now by anyone who still parrots it.

[TheDaddy]

Originally Posted by Hugh

you haven’t said a word in the Ukraine thread about the same actions carried out by the Russians, and your definition of a "peaceful" solution in Ukraine is letting the Russians keep all the territory they’ve invaded in this conflict and in 2014, allowing them to rebuild their military capabilities and do the same thing again.

Originally Posted by jfman

My point in the other thread is that the “fight for every inch” position is not sustainable - something that it patently is not and more so now given one of America’s genuine allies will be dipping the same stockpiles (of weapons and money) that Zelensky needs. I’m more than happy to discuss that on that thread.

Don't want to sound like some weird conspiracy theorist and perhaps the covid has clouded my judgement but this all seems very convenient for vlad the insaner, Israel will now stop their aid to Ukraine, dip into those already depleted US weapons stockpiles and divert attention away from Ukraine, seems so beneficial for him it's hard to see how he's not involved somewhere?

[OLD BOY]

Originally Posted by jfman

With the current Israeli government there is only more of this. Should they also rise up?

The latest Guardian update has this



583 children.

The expectation that these families should do anything other than blame Israel is both fanciful and extremely naive. In no way, shape or form can the war crimes of the Israeli state be described as proportionate and we've only just begun.

Dare I ask how many more need to die before you think it's enough? Or is it just a blank cheque?

So you think it was OK for Hamas to go on the rampage and kill innocent civilians in the most barbaric way, including chopping the heads off children?

The Israeli attack on Gaza is in pursuit of protecting the security of Israel and is in self defence. The families in Gaza need to suck on that.

Israel has been continually provoked by Hamas. They cannot be allowed to get away with this forever, and at last they are getting their comeuppance.

---------- Post added at 20:24 ---------- Previous post was at 20:23 ----------

Originally Posted by mrmistoffelees

Watching the news I learnt that there hasn’t been an election since 2007 meaning no one under the age of 35 has ever voted for Hamas.

Whilst I agree with what you say regarding their removal. How does an impoverished population rise up and overthrow a heavily armed, state backed bunch of murdering dicks ?

Er - by engaging in peace talks, which Hamas resolutely try to scupper every time they start.

[Pierre]

Originally Posted by OLD BOY

So you think it was OK for Hamas to go on the rampage and kill innocent civilians in the most barbaric way, including chopping the heads off children?

The Israeli attack on Gaza is in pursuit of protecting the security of Israel and is in self defence. The families in Gaza need to suck on that.

Israel has been continually provoked by Hamas. They cannot be allowed to get away with this forever, and at last they are getting their comeuppance.

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Er - by engaging in peace talks, which Hamas resolutely try to scupper every time they start.

Obviously debate is welcome.

But you’re a bit late to the party OB.

Myself and JFman are at odds on this issue, but if you had read through the thread ( which you obviously haven’t) he’s more than already answered his position on all those points.

[1andrew1]

Originally Posted by mrmistoffelees

How does an impoverished population rise up and overthrow a heavily armed, state backed bunch of murdering dicks? [Hamas]

Originally Posted by OLD BOY

Er - by engaging in peace talks, which Hamas resolutely try to scupper every time they start.

I don't think the population itself can engage in peace talks. Only the leaders of the territory, Hamas, can do that.

[TheDaddy]

Originally Posted by 1andrew1

I don't think the population itself can engage in peace talks. Only the leaders of the territory, Hamas, can do that.

And they don't live there

Hamas deserve everything they get.

Unfortunately, the way Israel are going about it atm, it seems innocent people are also getting killed.

There is a large difference between invading and deliberately killing families & children face to face v killing them [unintentionally ?] via poorly targeted bombing of supposedly military targets. However, at the end of they day, the result is the same, they are dead.

Atm, I'm giving them the benefit of believing its not intentional, and that they are not targetting civilians, but you can only believe in so many mistakes before you start to wonder.

[TheDaddy]

Originally Posted by Paul

Hamas deserve everything they get.

Unfortunately, the way Israel are going about it atm, it seems innocent people are also getting killed.

There is a large difference between invading and deliberately killing families & children face to face v killing them [unintentionally ?] via poorly targeted bombing of supposedly military targets. However, at the end of they day, the result is the same, they are dead.

Atm, I'm giving them the benefit of believing its not intentional, and that they are not targetting civilians, but you can only believe in so many mistakes before you start to wonder.

That's what will end all this in the end I suspect, when American politicians and public stop giving them the benefit of the doubt and tell them to stop

[Dude111]

Absolutely horrible whats going on

[ianch99]

Originally Posted by Pierre

OK Mr P. Dantic. It was making a point about current events, but if you want me to be pedantic. I said “this week”.

Nothing pedantic here. Facts are that Palestinians get killed & injured on an ongoing basis. Just setting some context. They are not getting killed exclusively due to the current events.

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Originally Posted by OLD BOY

The Israeli attack on Gaza is in pursuit of protecting the security of Israel and is in self defence. The families in Gaza need to suck on that.

Are there really people who write this sort of rubbish? Nearly 50% of Gazans are children. Here is one of them (from 2021):

"It's not fair" - A 10-year-old Palestinian girl breaks down while talking to MEE

These children are not Hamas but in a few years time, they will be thanks to actions taken at the moment.

[jfman]

Originally Posted by OLD BOY

So you think it was OK for Hamas to go on the rampage and kill innocent civilians in the most barbaric way, including chopping the heads off children?

The Israeli attack on Gaza is in pursuit of protecting the security of Israel and is in self defence. The families in Gaza need to suck on that.

Your callous disregard for human life is despicable, OB.

I'm not entertaining the rest of your post or any other on this subject.

---------- Post added at 11:52 ---------- Previous post was at 11:24 ----------

Originally Posted by TheDaddy

That's what will end all this in the end I suspect, when American politicians and public stop giving them the benefit of the doubt and tell them to stop

There is an emerging thought online that the current delay - attributed to the weather (which is atrocious) officially I think - is America blinking given the public (everywhere) and diplomatic (outside of Europe) reaction around the world this weekend.

It won't change Israel's strategy but allows more time for evacuation and humanitarian efforts. There's also suggestions of Egypt erecting a fence 5km from the border presumably to contain refugees which would allow humanitarian efforts to be made safely on Egyptian soil.

This is going to play out atrociously for American foreign policy interests worldwide but they could at least try to mitigate slightly.

[Pierre]

Originally Posted by ianch99

They are not getting killed exclusively due to the current events.

The ones since last weekend, and the sheer size of numbers, are though.

[ianch99]

Seems Farage is lying again. He claimed:

A man is taken away by British police for carrying a Union Jack flag whilst the hordes march for a foreign war. How have we sunk to this?

Met Police had to post this in reply to counter this disinformation:

A clip is circulating on social media of a man arrested in Whitehall this afternoon. Whilst we cannot comment further as it's being investigated, we can state that he was not arrested for anything in connection to carrying the Union Flag.

[Sephiroth]

Poor old man. At least someone was loyally standing up to the "hordes" of Hamas sympathisers.