Britain outside the EU

[Sephiroth]

Originally Posted by mrmistoffelees

My point about technical solutions is a lie ? When you yourself admit the required API is not yet available ? Never mind the surveillance/reimbursement systems which do not exist yet.

You need to get the complan dribbles wiped off your chin. You’re a mess

You shouldn't stoop to that kind of insult. OB has it completely right and all the necessary systems will sooer or later be in place.

[mrmistoffelees]

Originally Posted by Sephiroth

You shouldn't stoop to that kind of insult. OB has it completely right and all the necessary systems will sooer or later be in place.

No he doesn’t, he claims that they’re available now which they’re not.

That is a simple fact.


If you want to side with him and his delusions, have at it.

[TheDaddy]

Originally Posted by OLD BOY

Not sure what you are talking about. I have provided links and explanations. You just don’t want to hear them.

The fact that you have not absorbed the information I have given does not justify you not accepting it, but I guess that’s the way it is.

We will just have to let this play out.

If I wanted other people's opinions I wouldn't bother talking to you, I asked you a simple question that you've refused to answer, why is that I wonder.

Originally Posted by Sephiroth

You shouldn't stoop to that kind of insult. OB has it completely right and all the necessary systems will sooer or later be in place.

Yes sooner or later, maybe within our lifetimes, maybe not

I suggest a few people in here calm down.

Originally Posted by OLD BOY

Not sure what you are talking about. I have provided links and explanations. You just don’t want to hear them.

The fact that you have not absorbed the information I have given does not justify you not accepting it, but I guess that’s the way it is.

We will just have to let this play out.

---------- Post added at 14:08 ---------- Previous post was at 13:56 ----------



The API is simply a software bridge that enables two systems to talk to each other. It is not a technological barrier.

Every time you check information on an app on your mobile, you are using an API.

None of these problems are beyond our existing competencies. You are portraying all this as if it were science fiction.

And incidentally, your escalating rudeness is childish and betrays your increasing desperation to prove to everyone that we are doomed to failure.

An API can be as simple, complex, or extremely complex - it doesn’t just connect systems, it can also be required to extract data (which could be hundreds or thousands of data fields, often with interdependencies) from a system (or multiple systems), validate that data (is it in the format required for the other system(s)), convert if required to the format(s) required by the other systems (and vice-versa), and then make sure the data integrity across multiple systems is maintained. At the same time, you have to ensure that any changes in the multiple issuing/receiving systems is under strict Change Control, as a minor change to a file or data format could cause major issues. Then you have to design the error-handling for all times that data is incorrect (after all the Business Analysis required to understand interdependencies between all the data fields, finding what can still be processed if data validation raises errors) and the resolution paths to fix and resume the data Extraction, Translate, & Loads between all the different systems. Are all the systems capable of real-time integration, or do some have to be batch processes, and if so, what is the periodicity of the batch runs, and how do you ensure data integrity between the feeds to/from batch systems and those with real-time updates?

Now multiply that by all the different systems used in different countries.

Can I ask what your experience in Systems Design, Systems Integration, or Technical Architecture is, please, which gives you the knowledge, experience, and background to summarily dismissed the complexity and duration of the work involved?

[mrmistoffelees]

Originally Posted by Hugh

An API can be as simple, complex, or extremely complex - it doesn’t just connect systems, it can also be required to extract data (which could be hundreds or thousands of data fields, often with interdependencies) from a system (or multiple systems), validate that data (is it in the format required for the other system(s)), convert if required to the format(s) required by the other systems (and vice-versa), and then make sure the data integrity across multiple systems is maintained. At the same time, you have to ensure that any changes in the multiple issuing/receiving systems is under strict Change Control, as a minor change to a file or data format could cause major issues. Then you have to design the error-handling for all times that data is incorrect (after all the Business Analysis required to understand interdependencies between all the data fields, finding what can still be processed if data validation raises errors) and the resolution paths to fix and resume the data Extraction, Translate, & Loads between all the different systems. Are all the systems capable of real-time integration, or do some have to be batch processes, and if so, what is the periodicity of the batch runs, and how do you ensure data integrity between the feeds to/from batch systems and those with real-time updates?

Now multiply that by all the different systems used in different countries.

Can I ask what your experience in Systems Design, Systems Integration, or Technical Architecture is, please, which gives you the knowledge, experience, and background to summarily dismissed the complexity and duration of the work involved?

[Sephiroth]

Originally Posted by Hugh

An API can be as simple, complex, or extremely complex - it doesn’t just connect systems, it can also be required to extract data (which could be hundreds or thousands of data fields, often with interdependencies) from a system (or multiple systems), validate that data (is it in the format required for the other system(s)), convert if required to the format(s) required by the other systems (and vice-versa), and then make sure the data integrity across multiple systems is maintained. At the same time, you have to ensure that any changes in the multiple issuing/receiving systems is under strict Change Control, as a minor change to a file or data format could cause major issues. Then you have to design the error-handling for all times that data is incorrect (after all the Business Analysis required to understand interdependencies between all the data fields, finding what can still be processed if data validation raises errors) and the resolution paths to fix and resume the data Extraction, Translate, & Loads between all the different systems. Are all the systems capable of real-time integration, or do some have to be batch processes, and if so, what is the periodicity of the batch runs, and how do you ensure data integrity between the feeds to/from batch systems and those with real-time updates?

Now multiply that by all the different systems used in different countries.

Can I ask what your experience in Systems Design, Systems Integration, or Technical Architecture is, please, which gives you the knowledge, experience, and background to summarily dismissed the complexity and duration of the work involved?

Isn't the NI/GB/EIRE system the one that urgently needs doing?

[Mad Max]

Originally Posted by Sephiroth

You shouldn't stoop to that kind of insult. OB has it completely right and all the necessary systems will sooer or later be in place.

Well said.

[OLD BOY]

Originally Posted by mrmistoffelees

No he doesn’t, he claims that they’re available now which they’re not.

That is a simple fact.


If you want to side with him and his delusions, have at it.

Listen, it’s just the implementation that takes time. The technology is there already.

And while we work out how to implement, the grace period can be extended. It’s not rocket science.

You are the one who is delusional. You don’t have the capacity to understand that problems can be resolved. You just throw up your hands and give up.

What I have been putting forward is the government’s own solution. No government would come up with a solution that is pure science fiction.

---------- Post added at 19:52 ---------- Previous post was at 19:50 ----------

Originally Posted by TheDaddy

If I wanted other people's opinions I wouldn't bother talking to you, I asked you a simple question that you've refused to answer, why is that I wonder.

I have answered your questions. You just don’t understand the answers. My solution to that - watch and learn. It will all come to pass.

---------- Post added at 19:55 ---------- Previous post was at 19:52 ----------

Originally Posted by Hugh

An API can be as simple, complex, or extremely complex - it doesn’t just connect systems, it can also be required to extract data (which could be hundreds or thousands of data fields, often with interdependencies) from a system (or multiple systems), validate that data (is it in the format required for the other system(s)), convert if required to the format(s) required by the other systems (and vice-versa), and then make sure the data integrity across multiple systems is maintained. At the same time, you have to ensure that any changes in the multiple issuing/receiving systems is under strict Change Control, as a minor change to a file or data format could cause major issues. Then you have to design the error-handling for all times that data is incorrect (after all the Business Analysis required to understand interdependencies between all the data fields, finding what can still be processed if data validation raises errors) and the resolution paths to fix and resume the data Extraction, Translate, & Loads between all the different systems. Are all the systems capable of real-time integration, or do some have to be batch processes, and if so, what is the periodicity of the batch runs, and how do you ensure data integrity between the feeds to/from batch systems and those with real-time updates?

Now multiply that by all the different systems used in different countries.

Can I ask what your experience in Systems Design, Systems Integration, or Technical Architecture is, please, which gives you the knowledge, experience, and background to summarily dismissed the complexity and duration of the work involved?

Hugh, don’t be ridiculous. I did not say it was easy, I said the technology was there, which it is.

---------- Post added at 19:57 ---------- Previous post was at 19:55 ----------

Originally Posted by mrmistoffelees

I don’t know what you’re clapping for. New Zealand has already implemented a technological solution. Hugh has not claimed, as you have, that the technology isn’t there. He merely said it would take time, which is not disputed. Your argument has come undone.

You really don’t understand Systems Design & Development or Technical Architecture, do you?

Saying "the technology is there" makes it sound simple, which it isn’t - it took SpaceX 6 years to get their first successful launch (after multiple failures), and it’s first commercial launch took 12 years, but "the technology" already existed (it’s entire ethos is using COTS and existing testing technology to reduce cost and development time).

You stated

The API is simply a software bridge that enables two systems to talk to each other. It is not a technological barrier.

It’s not the technology that takes the time, it’s understanding and agreeing the requirements, designing the systems and interfaces, prototyping and testing those systems and interfaces, developing the full solution and interfaces, testing and implementing those systems and interfaces, regression testing the impact of any changes required to linked systems (a couple of loops of the last two steps when errors are found or changes required), and while all this is going on, requirements for system changes will being requested* as the world (political and economic) changes (new laws, standards, processes, etc.).

To give you a sense of timescales, the current Customs system (CHIEF) was suppose to have been retired in 2012 - in fact, it’s replacement, CDS, will be implemented at the end of March 2023; the "technology" is/was there, but it’s 11 years late.

And as for the NZ "technological solution", how does it deal with the cross-border foot and road traffic from Australia?

*and by requested, I mean demanded, usually by politicians

[OLD BOY]

Originally Posted by Hugh

You really don’t understand Systems Design & Development or Technical Architecture, do you?

Saying "the technology is there" makes it sound simple, which it isn’t - it took SpaceX 6 years to get their first successful launch (after multiple failures), and it’s first commercial launch took 12 years, but "the technology" already existed (it’s entire ethos is using COTS and existing testing technology to reduce cost and development time).

You stated

It’s not the technology that takes the time, it’s understanding and agreeing the requirements, designing the systems and interfaces, prototyping and testing those systems and interfaces, developing the full solution and interfaces, testing and implementing those systems and interfaces, regression testing the impact of any changes required to linked systems (a couple of loops of the last two steps when errors are found or changes required), and while all this is going on, requirements for system changes will being requested* as the world (political and economic) changes (new laws, standards, processes, etc.).

To give you a sense of timescales, the current Customs system (CHIEF) was suppose to have been retired in 2012 - in fact, it’s replacement, CDS, will be implemented at the end of March 2023; the "technology" is/was there, but it’s 11 years late.

And as for the NZ "technological solution", how does it deal with the cross-border foot and road traffic from Australia?

*and by requested, I mean demanded, usually by politicians

Don’t get carried away Hugh. All I said was that the technology was there.

Are you seriously disagreeing with this?

Are you seriously trying to compare this situation with launching a rocket?

I really think that some of you on this forum are overthinking this - big time!

[TheDaddy]

Originally Posted by OLD BOY

I have answered your questions. You just don’t understand the answers. My solution to that - watch and learn. It will all come to pass.

Questions? I've only asked one and you haven't answered it at all, in fact you've got out of your way not to answer it because you can't, you make these proclamations based on nothing

Originally Posted by OLD BOY

Don’t get carried away Hugh. All I said was that the technology was there.

Are you seriously disagreeing with this?

Are you seriously trying to compare this situation with launching a rocket?

I really think that some of you on this forum are overthinking this - big time!

and others are under thinking it, big time!

[mrmistoffelees]

Originally Posted by OLD BOY

Listen, it’s just the implementation that takes time. The technology is there already.

And while we work out how to implement, the grace period can be extended. It’s not rocket science.

You are the one who is delusional. You don’t have the capacity to understand that problems can be resolved. You just throw up your hands and give up.

What I have been putting forward is the government’s own solution. No government would come up with a solution that is pure science fiction.

---------- Post added at 19:52 ---------- Previous post was at 19:50 ----------



I have answered your questions. You just don’t understand the answers. My solution to that - watch and learn. It will all come to pass.

---------- Post added at 19:55 ---------- Previous post was at 19:52 ----------



Hugh, don’t be ridiculous. I did not say it was easy, I said the technology was there, which it is.

---------- Post added at 19:57 ---------- Previous post was at 19:55 ----------



I don’t know what you’re clapping for. New Zealand has already implemented a technological solution. Hugh has not claimed, as you have, that the technology isn’t there. He merely said it would take time, which is not disputed. Your argument has come undone.

Oh Old Boy……..

Besides the original article which you selectively quoted from (you excluded the fact that reimbursement & surveillance technologies don’t exist yet… which is explicitly stated)

Have a read here pages 29-35

https://www.instituteforgovernment.o...toms_WEB_0.pdf

[papa smurf]

Originally Posted by Hugh

You really don’t understand Systems Design & Development or Technical Architecture, do you?

Saying "the technology is there" makes it sound simple, which it isn’t - it took SpaceX 6 years to get their first successful launch (after multiple failures), and it’s first commercial launch took 12 years, but "the technology" already existed (it’s entire ethos is using COTS and existing testing technology to reduce cost and development time).

You stated

It’s not the technology that takes the time, it’s understanding and agreeing the requirements, designing the systems and interfaces, prototyping and testing those systems and interfaces, developing the full solution and interfaces, testing and implementing those systems and interfaces, regression testing the impact of any changes required to linked systems (a couple of loops of the last two steps when errors are found or changes required), and while all this is going on, requirements for system changes will being requested* as the world (political and economic) changes (new laws, standards, processes, etc.).

To give you a sense of timescales, the current Customs system (CHIEF) was suppose to have been retired in 2012 - in fact, it’s replacement, CDS, will be implemented at the end of March 2023; the "technology" is/was there, but it’s 11 years late.

And as for the NZ "technological solution", how does it deal with the cross-border foot and road traffic from Australia?

*and by requested, I mean demanded, usually by politicians

How do you walk or drive across the Tasman sea?

That’s the point…

There aren’t any requirements for foot or road traffic exports/imports in the NZ-Australia systems, so using their "technology" as a comparison to posit there is a similar solution already in place is not congruent with actuality.

---------- Post added at 09:30 ---------- Previous post was at 09:25 ----------

Originally Posted by OLD BOY

Don’t get carried away Hugh. All I said was that the technology was there.

Are you seriously disagreeing with this?

Are you seriously trying to compare this situation with launching a rocket?

I really think that some of you on this forum are overthinking this - big time!

I’m not getting "carried away" - I’m using 40 years experience in implementing large scale Business Systems to point out the complexity of what is required, rather than your simplistic "the technology is there" mantra, based on who knows what? I pointed out that one aspect of the "technology" that you said is "already there" is in fact not "there", and is over a decade late, and won’t go live for nearly two years.

You said

Your point about technical solutions not yet being available is another lie being put about by those who want to see us fail. Of course they are there, and New Zealand have already found such a solution for their exports, as my link showed.

As stated above, you are comparing apples with orang-utans - You keep using "the technology is there" as your "get out of jail" card - the technology to provide a solution to the Eire/EU - NI/UK cross-border traffic and imports and exports isn’t there, and probably won’t be for 5-10 years.