[Update] The UK votes to leave the EU

[Ramrod]

Originally Posted by Big Brian

Both sides are, in most cases telling the truth, they are just embellishing what they say to make it sound good.

What with warnings of WW3 and massive drops in house prices, not to mention it being 'unpatriotic' to vote out I'd say that the remanians are winning the embelishment game!

[jonbxx]

Originally Posted by Big Brian

No one here is bullying anyone as far as I can see. Either side presents their case to help those who have said they are undecided.

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I suggest reading reality check on the BBC site or listening to the News Channel where they analyse what both sides are saying and present the facts. Both sides are, in most cases telling the truth, they are just embellishing what they say to make it sound good.

Fullfact.org is excellent too.

One big whopper from the Leave campaign is the £350 million spent each week though

Originally Posted by jonbxx

Fullfact.org is excellent too.

One big whopper from the Leave campaign is the £350 million spent each week though

Yep it's actually about half that figure

---------- Post added at 15:17 ---------- Previous post was at 15:05 ----------

Originally Posted by jonbxx

I think for most people, the EU has little to no direct influence in their lives that is visible so a vote either way is a 'heart' rather than 'head' decision. Hence the project fear from both sides. People don't give a monkeys about an x% drop in GDP, hence the ridiculous £4300 figure. Conversely, you get the 'everything is going to be alright' argument if we leave with no real evidence or even plans in place

I think most people will vote by they see ,if they live in area that is swamped by immigrants and can't see their doctor or get the school place they want they will most likely vote out because for years the media has been telling us that it's all the fault of Europe ,not to mention the Tories during the Blair years where blaming Europe for everything

[Big Brian]

Originally Posted by Ramrod

What with warnings of WW3 and massive drops in house prices, not to mention it being 'unpatriotic' to vote out I'd say that the remanians are winning the embelishment game!

No when they say that the economy will take a hit for example.

It is bound to but it won't be anywhere like they say. They use the worse case scenarios.

When they say there will be trade with UK countries.

Of course there will but it won't be as easy as some are saying.

---------- Post added at 15:39 ---------- Previous post was at 15:30 ----------

Originally Posted by jonbxx

Fullfact.org is excellent too.

One big whopper from the Leave campaign is the £350 million spent each week though

They know this. Again it's a case of embellishing the truth. The cost is £350 million a week but when you take things like the rebate and other funding into account it's more like £170 million. That's still a lot of candy. The problem leave has is will that money go to cover what the EU gives in funding? £88 million I believe.

But it isn't just what we send to the EU is it? There are other costs like keeping the MEPs. Hotels or accommodation for them. Their expenses. The costs of conferences to name but a few things.

---------- Post added at 15:47 ---------- Previous post was at 15:39 ----------

Immigration Rises 'Significantly' Again, ONS Figures Reveal, Despite Government's Promise To Slash Numbers

The figures mean that the Prime Minister and Home Secretary, who pledged to slash net migration to below 100,000 by the election, have officially failed to fulfill that pledge.

http://www.huffingtonpost.co.uk/2015...n_6758050.html

And this is only the start. It will keep rising. If the referendum was decided on immigration we would leave on June 23rd IMHO.

[Osem]

Originally Posted by martyh

I think most people will vote by they see ,if they live in area that is swamped by immigrants and can't see their doctor or get the school place they want they will most likely vote out because for years the media has been telling us that it's all the fault of Europe ,not to mention the Tories during the Blair years where blaming Europe for everything

I agree. It's a lot easier to be relaxed about this matter when your daily life is barely affected by it. As we've seen in the EU though, people in places like Austria and Germany were relaxed (and welcoming) about it all until the migrants started moving from Greece and S. Italy to their countries and didn't stop. We all know what happened then. What people here need to realise is that if the numbers carry on at the present rate, they will eventually have to face the truth but it'll be too late to do anything about it. Without any great influx from Syria officially, yet, the fact is that our population is growing by c. 1,000,000 people every 3 years, half of which is EU migration and therefore unstoppable. Add to that the additional population increases due to birth rates amongst the new migrants and the figure will be even higher in the longer term. Whilst we're in the EU we cannot stop this despite the fact that our services and infrastructure demonstrably cannot cope with the needs of the current population.

No, leaving the EU won't solve our immigration problems overnight or be a panacea for all our ills but it'll help considerably in tackling a serious problem which threatens to destabilise the whole of Europe.

I haven't seen much of "everything will be rosy" statements from leave there is an acceptance there will be an economic hit in the event we vote to leave but the hit will not be as catastrophic as remain would have everyone believe and we will then be in a position to trade with who we want when we want with the only limitations being those we impose ourselves. Sadly I think remain will win people are taking notice of all the doom and gloom and it's sinking in even though many likely don't fully believe what they are being told.

If nothing else after this the British people need to remember the conduct of the politicians and start to sort that out as the only thing worse then the UK bring in the EU is us remaining in with the political jellyfish we have now. It's bad enough that Cameron tried to convince us he got a deal before when he basically got sod all we need strength in our future dealings with the EU as if we do vote to remain the euro fanatics are going to see it as complete validation for the grand plan they have zero interest in any meaningful reform.

[ianch99]

Originally Posted by RizzyKing

I haven't seen much of "everything will be rosy" statements from leave there is an acceptance there will be an economic hit in the event we vote to leave but the hit will not be as catastrophic as remain would have everyone believe and we will then be in a position to trade with who we want when we want with the only limitations being those we impose ourselves. Sadly I think remain will win people are taking notice of all the doom and gloom and it's sinking in even though many likely don't fully believe what they are being told.

If nothing else after this the British people need to remember the conduct of the politicians and start to sort that out as the only thing worse then the UK bring in the EU is us remaining in with the political jellyfish we have now. It's bad enough that Cameron tried to convince us he got a deal before when he basically got sod all we need strength in our future dealings with the EU as if we do vote to remain the euro fanatics are going to see it as complete validation for the grand plan they have zero interest in any meaningful reform.

One thing that doesn't help, and this is true for both sides, is the increasing use of pejorative terms when discussing the opinions of each side on this debate. Calling people terms like "euro fanatics" just winds them up and they come back with terms like "swivel eyed right wing loons".

We are allowed our opinions and when someone thinks we should Leave or someone else thinks we should Remain then that's fine. Both are entitled to their opinions ..

Just make a judgement call and vote on it .. BTW, I looked it up, Remain wins: 52.3%

At the moment, the bookies are giving odds of

In 1/7
Out 4/1

https://www.justbookies.com/election-odds/

[denphone]

And the bookies are rarely wrong..

I'm not referring to any voter when I use the term "euro fanatic" I'm referring to the group within the EU political class who only see one way to progress and one endpoint, I perhaps should have made that clearer but given my prior posts regarding how voters should not be labeled anything I assumed people would understand that. In terms of individual voters I've made my views clear in previous posts where I stand on that.

[Osem]

Originally Posted by RizzyKing

I haven't seen much of "everything will be rosy" statements from leave there is an acceptance there will be an economic hit in the event we vote to leave but the hit will not be as catastrophic as remain would have everyone believe and we will then be in a position to trade with who we want when we want with the only limitations being those we impose ourselves. Sadly I think remain will win people are taking notice of all the doom and gloom and it's sinking in even though many likely don't fully believe what they are being told.

If nothing else after this the British people need to remember the conduct of the politicians and start to sort that out as the only thing worse then the UK bring in the EU is us remaining in with the political jellyfish we have now. It's bad enough that Cameron tried to convince us he got a deal before when he basically got sod all we need strength in our future dealings with the EU as if we do vote to remain the euro fanatics are going to see it as complete validation for the grand plan they have zero interest in any meaningful reform.

Cameron went into this clearly giving the electorate the impression that he was open minded to the extent that if he couldn't get what he wanted he felt the UK could do well outside the EU. Now, having not got what he said he wanted, he's claiming it'll be the end of civilisation were the UK to exit. On the scale of deceit, that has to be a con trick of Bliar like proportions.

[ianch99]

Originally Posted by RizzyKing

I'm not referring to any voter when I use the term "euro fanatic" I'm referring to the group within the EU political class who only see one way to progress and one endpoint, I perhaps should have made that clearer but given my prior posts regarding how voters should not be labeled anything I assumed people would understand that. In terms of individual voters I've made my views clear in previous posts where I stand on that.

I wasn't aiming my comment just at you. There are others, one in particular, who constantly characterise those who disagree with them and their views are somehow mentally defective.

People need to step back and respect each other's ability to make their own minds up without having a constant barrage of the same repetitive invective being served up.

Make your point, step back and let other's make their points ..

[techguyone]

Originally Posted by ianch99

I wasn't aiming my comment just at you. There are others, one in particular, who constantly characterise those who disagree with them and their views are somehow mentally defective.

People need to step back and respect each other's ability to make their own minds up without having a constant barrage of the same repetitive invective being served up.

Make your point, step back and let other's make their points ..

What he said.

Whatever the vote I hope once it's over the things that have been done during the run up to the referendum are not forgotten and we keep on electing the same politicians as whatever the result of the referendum we have a huge problem in the UK.

[pip08456]

Originally Posted by RizzyKing

Whatever the vote I hope once it's over the things that have been done during the run up to the referendum are not forgotten and we keep on electing the same politicians as whatever the result of the referendum we have a huge problem in the UK.

The biggest problem we have is the politicians, not one of them can be trusted.