Islamic group's plan to march through Wootton Bassett

Originally Posted by Earl of Bronze

Do you really believe British servicemen and women fight and die for other people's freedoms ? Are you really that naive ?

I'll let you in on a secret, though it's not really a secret....

When I was in the army back in the 80's and 90's, I and my mates didn't really give a toss about Kuwait or Saudi when Op Granby started. We had been given a job to do, and we cracked on, not really caring about the larger political implications of leaving Saddam and the Baath Party in power after kicking the crap out of the Iraqi Army.... It wasn't much of a war, but it was fun.

The UN Mission in Bosnia during their Civil War was different. Lots of blokes who did time there wanted to get stuck in and give the Serbs a pasting. Again, not because of freedom and democracy, but because we hated seeing the Serbs murdering women, kids and old men and women. Doing that breaks the most basic code of the warrior. Add in the UN weapons embargo against the entire country and the Serbs ended up with the lions share of the military hardware and the ability to do as they pleased....

From speaking to a lifelong friend of mine, who is a Staff Sgt in one of the local TA infantry battalions. Who has done operational tours in both Iraq and Afghan, it seems similar sentiments are running through the army. Most agree that Iraq was a disaster, but Afghan is worth cracking on with.... From my own experience in Bosnia, I'm pretty sure the blokes in Afghan empathize with the plight of the average Afghan civi. But all the politicians talk in the UK about building democracy, putting girls in schools, etc etc etc is pretty much meaningless.... They are there to find and kill the enemy, others can do the building....

One last point before I finish....

We all recognize that when the troops get sent into harms way, and blood becomes the issue. We'll kill for you, but if we die, it's for our mates and the people we love. Not for Queen and Country, because that comcept is too big to rationalize....

I'll not be taking any further part in this discussion, as I've said more than I intended, and prolly caused some confusion as well....

This is all true for the present modern day set up..wasn't true for my father's generation though.He was called up,not an enlisted man and WW11 was an entirely different war not just of the technology but because our servicemen were fighting to protect our freedom which was directly threatened.

However do you really think that fighting and reducing the Taliban and Al Qaeda is not defending this country from terrorist attacks?Is that not protecting our freedoms?

Originally Posted by Maggy J

This is all true for the present modern day set up..wasn't true for my father's generation though.He was called up,not an enlisted man and WW11 was an entirely different war not just of the technology but because our servicemen were fighting to protect our freedom which was directly threatened.

However do you really think that fighting and reducing the Taliban and Al Qaeda is not defending this country from terrorist attacks?Is that not protecting our freedoms?

Maggy. I'm quite sure that if you ever get, or got your dad to really talk about what he did in the war, he'd tell you it was for his mates and the people he loved. People talk about Queen and Country, protecting our way of life, or values, or democracy blahblahblah.... But when some provo/Iraqi/Serb/ Afghan/ Argie is trying to slot you, you realize these things are too big and abstract. So you rationalize it to a more manageable level. You fight, and if you die, you do it for the lads around you, and the people you love at home.

I have a feeling that dying for King/Queen and Country died in the years between 1914 and 1918....

[Stutz]

We wouldn't be there Maggie if we where not under the USA's thumb. What your (and my father) fought for was an ideal, a real belief in freedom. This is not the same fight There are plenty of vids on you tube depicting the way the world is going, Oil, minerals and, oh I forgot, religious beliefs. Lets keep this one in perspective.

---------- Post added at 01:26 ---------- Previous post was at 01:19 ----------

My apologies....Maggy J

[Sirius]

Boy if i had served with some of the liberal mealy mouthed sods in this thread i would have been worried.

[Sirius]

It sickens me to think that some here are more willing to allow this march and sour the name of our lads than stand up and show they have a pair. I hope we never have to go to war and call up some of the liberal lay downs that we have seen post in this thread because if we do we are doomed from the outset.

I am out of this thread because i cannot stomach some of the attitudes i have seen in this thread and it shames me to see what is going on

[Russ]

Originally Posted by Earl of Bronze

And you miss the point entirely Russ....

The members of the armed forces know better than anyone else the true value of freedom.... Its measured in men and womens blood, spilled by those in the services and civilians. If these bottom-dwelling asshats had chosen to have their sad little parade anywhere else in the country, most squaddies would have curled their lip in contempt/ Then gotten on with the job. Instead, these treasonous, beardy retards have the brass neck to do it in the market town that welcomes the fallen home. The fact that serving members, as well as ex-servicemen and women are getting angry had bugger all to do with wanting to fill in anyone who doesn't agree with us.... Its to do with the utter contempt being shown by a bunch of mouthy, spineless <incert the worst swear word in the english language here> who hate everything we stand for....

To be honest, the complete lack of understanding shown in this thread is, while not shocking. But some of the sentiments expressed sickens me....

Let's see if I've understood your point correctly.

Marches and celebrations in supports of our armed forces are permitted.

Marches and demonstrations against our forces, way of life etc should not be permitted.

Is that the general consensus?

---------- Post added at 09:58 ---------- Previous post was at 09:57 ----------

Originally Posted by Sirius

I am out of this thread because i cannot stomach some of the attitudes i have seen in this thread and it shames me to see what is going on

Close the door on the way out?

From what I can see it looks like you're totally misunderstanding some of the attitudes in this thread. Your support for the forces is commendable but they are not untouchable. Democracy dictates people can protest against them even if they are fundamentalist nutters. As I said earlier if the BNP or AFL are permitted to demonstrate then so should these brain donors.

Originally Posted by Russ

Let's see if I've understood your point correctly.

Marches and celebrations in supports of our armed forces are permitted.

Marches and demonstrations against our forces, way of life etc should not be permitted.

Is that the general consensus?

---------- Post added at 09:58 ---------- Previous post was at 09:57 ----------



Close the door on the way out?

From what I can see it looks like you're totally misunderstanding some of the attitudes in this thread. Your supports for the forces in commendable but they are not untouchable. Democracy dictates people can protest against them even if they are fundamentalist nutters. As I said earlier if the BNP or AFL are permitted to demonstrate then so should these brain donors.

Exactly

Originally Posted by Russ

Marches and demonstrations against our forces, way of life etc should not be permitted.

No Russ. Nowhere in this thread have I said that anti-war demonstrations should not be allowed. Quote from a previous post of mine....

While I support their right to hold a peaceful march (this is allegedly still a democracy after all)

See.... While these excretable people have the right to march for whatever reason they wish to give. The location is highly provocative. It's the fact that these Britain haters have chosen Wooten Bassett, where they will call my comrades baby killers, rapists and war criminals makes me, and may others so bloody angry.

In the end, the vast majority of people on these forums haven't served, so you don't really understand.... Not your fault, that's just how it is....

Originally Posted by Earl of Bronze

In the end, the vast majority of people on these forums haven't served, so you don't really understand.... Not your fault, that's just how it is....

True - but in the end, democracy doesn't consist of decisions made only by people with adequate personal experience. That's just how it is.

[Russ]

Originally Posted by Earl of Bronze

In the end, the vast majority of people on these forums haven't served, so you don't really understand.... Not your fault, that's just how it is....

Trying to patronise me doesn't make you any more right. I don't need to have been anywhere near the forces to know what democracy means. If you want to deny people their democratic right then fine, I'm sure there are many dictatorships around the world who'd be willing to further your cause. Contrary to what seem to be a self-serving belief, members of the forces are not above criticism. Yes they are willing to fight for the country but they are still bound by its constitutial laws. The armed forces do not have legal or moral superiority in democracy.

Originally Posted by Russ

Trying to patronise me doesn't make you any more right. I don't need to have been anywhere near the forces to know what democracy means. If you want to deny people their democratic right then fine, I'm sure there are many dictatorships around the world who'd be willing to further your cause. Contrary to what seem to be a self-serving belief, members of the forces are not above criticism. Yes they are willing to fight for the country but they are still bound by its constitutial laws. The armed forces do not have legal or moral superiority in democracy.

And again Russ, you misunderstood what I was trying to get across. Obviously I can't communicate my meaning about how being "in" does make changes to the way you think and see things....

I wasn't trying to patronize you about democracy, and I apologize if that's how it read to you.

[Russ]

I can understand that those with connections to the forces will feel livid about what the protesters want to do. But in this thread have been implications that because the protest is against our soldiers that it should somehow be prevented from happening using violence or other such means.

That in itself is hypocrisy. As disgusting as the group's aims and motivations are, they have their right to protest.

[Mr Angry]

Originally Posted by Earl of Bronze

And again Russ, you misunderstood what I was trying to get across. Obviously I can't communicate my meaning about how being "in" does make changes to the way you think and see things....

I wasn't trying to patronize you about democracy, and I apologize if that's how it read to you.

I think I understand where EOB is coming from.

He's annoyed that a bunch of people whom he broadly categorizes as "bottom-dwelling asshats, treasonous, beardy, retarded, mouthy, spineless ***** who hate everything we stand for...." have the apparent audacity to broadly categorize people he respects as "baby killers, rapists and war criminals".

Is that about it?

Originally Posted by Russ

I can understand that those with connections to the forces will feel livid about what the protesters want to do. But in this thread have been implications that because the protest is against our soldiers that it should somehow be prevented from happening using violence or other such means.

That in itself is hypocrisy. As disgusting as the group's aims and motivations are, they have their right to protest.

If the protest march is to be stopped, then it should be stopped by lawful means. Namely the police should apply to the council to have the parade banned. I don't have any interest seeing off duty squadies, and ex-squadies getting into a mammoth punch-up in WB. Especially as this march (if it goes ahead) will attract the bottom dwellers of the BNP, NF, Combat 18 etc.

As far as I'm concerned, filling in the marchers would only dishonour the memories of brave men who died on foreign fields.....

[nomadking]

Better be careful, before you know it people will actually be saying that it's ok for groups to demonstrate against Islamic extremism or Islamification even outside a Mosque.