Virgin Media announces 50mb lines from next year.

So theres no need for a quick upload for gaming

[brummyuk]

Originally Posted by Broadbandings

That's interesting as Comcast don't have a 15Mbit upstream product. Their tiers are, depending where you live:

6/1Mbit
8/1Mbit
8/2Mbit
16/2Mbit

And a very limited rollout of DOCSIS 3 at 50/5Mbit

With powerboost which allows a burst up to 30Mbit on downstream for the first few MB of a transfer.

Are you thinking of Verizon FiOS? Fibre to the home offering 20/20Mbit and 50/20Mbit as top tiers?

---------- Post added at 14:39 ---------- Previous post was at 14:31 ----------



Nope, the way queuing works on cable means that when you shoot your upstream transfer will take the same amount of time in transmission as someone on 10Mbit upstream as the amount of data is so small and it can fit into a single upstream transmit opportunity.

Bandwidth and latency are two different things, gaming is governed by latency rather than bandwidth in most cases. To upload a couple of hundred bytes to a game server over cable takes the same amount of time whether you have 768kbit/s upstream or 7.68Mbyte/s upstream as it's such a small amount of data.

On cable your upload limit governs how many slots of upstream you can have in a certain period, while you stay under your bandwidth limit there is no need for the uBR at VM to limit your upstream transmission so you get the same delay on transmission as someone else regardless of their cable's bandwidth.

Whatever the issue is with your lag it's most certainly not a shortage of bandwidth. Bandwidth is how wide the pipe is, latency is how long it takes data to travel down that pipe.

Example:

10Mbit cable:

Modem 'Hi I'm on 10Mbit, I want upstream for 200 bytes'
uBR 'Hey how's it going, sure here you go, you have been allocated x upstream slots at y time'
Modem at y time 'Here's my data, cheers'
uBR 'Sweet, note to self, this modem has enough slots left this second for another 9.95Mbit'

768kbit cable

Modem 'Hi I'm on 768kbit, I want upstream for 200 bytes'
uBR 'Hey how's it going, sure here you go, you have been allocated x upstream slots at y time'
Modem at y time 'Here's my data, cheers'
uBR 'Sweet, note to self, this modem has enough slots left this second for another 718kbit'

The only thing that will affect this latency is how busy the upstream channel is which changes how long the modem has to wait for 'y' time. All modems get the full upstream channel for a few microseconds to transmit their data, so whatever the speed your modem is capped at all cable modems will transmit at the same speed when they get their slots, be they 200kbit or 2Mbit upstream.

So what about hosting? We need a better upload to host games. Please do not tell me otherwise. The faster your upload the faster it gets to other countries.

Americans would not lag on my connection!

And we still need a better upload even when we are not hosting simply because there is a big gap between us and America, meaning data slows down as it travels. The faster the upload the faster it would get to the Americans Xbox telling it I shot him!

[Ignitionnet]

Originally Posted by brummyuk

So what about hosting? We need a better upload to host games. Please do not tell me otherwise. The faster your upload the faster it gets to other countries.

Americans would not lag on my connection!

And we still need a better upload even when we are not hosting simply because there is a big gap between us and America, meaning data slows down as it travels. The faster the upload the faster it would get to the Americans Xbox telling it I shot him!

What about hosting? More upload will let you have more players on the connection, not improve pings for those there unless your upload is maxed out.

And no data doesn't 'slow down' as it travels to the US it just has further to travel and a faster upload won't make the data go faster. Reread what I said. More bandwidth does not mean you can break the speed of light. A wider pipe does not make the data flow quicker it just means you can send more data at the same time.

[brummyuk]

Originally Posted by Broadbandings

What about hosting? More upload will let you have more players on the connection, not improve pings for those there unless your upload is maxed out.

And no data doesn't 'slow down' as it travels to the US it just has further to travel and a faster upload won't make the data go faster. Reread what I said. More bandwidth does not mean you can break the speed of light. A wider pipe does not make the data flow quicker it just means you can send more data at the same time.

If what you say is true, then why do some Americans lag on my connection? They have a faster internet than me!

[Ignitionnet]

Originally Posted by brummyuk

If what you say is true, then why do some Americans lag on my connection? They have a faster internet than me!

You're not quite understanding, it's nothing to do with bandwidth or how much their connections are capped at. They may have bad routing to you, they could be on the other side of the US or in the backside of nowhere.

I think we're going to struggle here until you get your head around that 'fast' or higher throughput does not mean lower pings. Whether you have 10Mbit or 2000Mbit you cannot change the laws of physics or beat the speed of light. If routes are lossy or elongated high latency / lag happens.

[popper]

Originally Posted by Broadbandings

That's interesting as Comcast don't have a 15Mbit upstream product. Their tiers are, depending where you live:

6/1Mbit
8/1Mbit
8/2Mbit
16/2Mbit

And a very limited rollout of DOCSIS 3 at 50/5Mbit

With powerboost which allows a burst up to 30Mbit on downstream for the first few MB of a transfer.

just a small point, all those Comcast rates you quote above are for their old Docsis1.1 kit,(excluding the DS2.0b[pre]/3 50/5 OC) they call these new packages "Blast", they are totally seperate to any DS3 required kit and packages they may mass roll out in 2+ months or so.

and OC , theres still the rather large problem that as of Todays date , only one single company has got official "Full" Docsis3 cert even today or in the near future and these [CS] are not something Vigin media will be likely to be buying in for their customers to rent and use.

all the others are still "bronze" bonded downstreams and mandated downstream Multicast, plus 1 or is it two ? single units that are "silver" bonded upstreams and mandated upstream multicast certifyed, that one company being "Casa Systems" getting "full" cert way back in Wave 58.

Casa Systems C2200 CMTS*
Casa Systems C3200 CMTS

The C2200 CMTS won Silver qualification in Wave 56.
Source: The companies and CableLabs.

in other news OC Netgear entered the DS 2.0b (pre)/3.0 market and got Certification in Wave 60, but that was "bronze i think, due to again useing the same chipsets as the other "bronze" vendors , that being the Texas Instruments "Puma 5" DS2.0b/3 chipset, THESE Puma 5 Docsis3 chipsets CAN NOT BE firmware flash UPGRADED to the "full" DS3 spec as someone on here (or a related CF thread) said the current new DS3 kit can be, the truth is not one single one of them can be.

they just cant, as they dont use FPGA (field Programable Gate array) chips as any real pre spec vendor that intended to supply this chip spec update option would use.

the most likely VM candidate before the NetGear appeared, the ambit U10C035 cert 58 cant be flash upgraded, so that means lots of new cash required once the end users and the markets demand real DS3 bonded uploads,do you trust VM to do the right thing or go for the cheapest off the shelf pre3 kit when everyone else will be using the real deal "full" DS3 kit in 18 months time....

"Having Netgear jump into the Docsis 3.0 modem pool could apply some unit price pressure on other vendors. "Another competitor always helps to reduce costs a bit more," says Heavy Reading senior analyst Alan Breznick, noting that some MSOs have complained about the price difference between 3.0 and 2.0 cable modems.

In the first quarter of this year, 3.0 modems were costing about $80 per unit. Operators would like to see *Wideband units eventually drop below $35"
http://www.lightreading.com/document...57819&site=cdn
"
*WideBand is the name the sales marketeers are still calling the Docsis2.0b pre 3 ,bronze /silver and real deal [Full]DS3 cert kit BTW.

[Horace]

Originally Posted by brummyuk

So what about hosting? We need a better upload to host games. Please do not tell me otherwise. The faster your upload the faster it gets to other countries.

Americans would not lag on my connection!

And we still need a better upload even when we are not hosting simply because there is a big gap between us and America, meaning data slows down as it travels. The faster the upload the faster it would get to the Americans Xbox telling it I shot him!

Think about bandwidth as the width of a pipe and the information you send and receive in a game as the water in the pipe, increasing the width doesn't increase the speed of the flow it just allows more water to travel at the same speed but since gaming requires only a tiny amount of the width of your whole pipe increasing the width further won't make any difference.
Using the same analogy, the reason so many people have problems with US servers and Asia is even worse, is because at intervals the pipes are connected together and sometimes the connections can't handle all the water flowing through so the flow is slowed, this happens when the cheapest pipe routes are used more often than not, Virgin being a domestic ISP uses those cheap pipes.

Geography plays an important part in latency and the closer the server the lower the ping assuming no local problems. You should try to avoid West coast US servers, Washington being an example and prefer to join East coast servers, routing to New York used to be particularly good from the UK since its one of the main landing points for transatlantic fibre. Also try to avoid inland servers in, for example Texas since those tend to be some of the worst for latency.

[popper]

key points to remember first:
this new chipset/SOC is not certified yet.

it want be until they get the chip through certification testing at CableLabs sometime NEXT YEAR assuming it passes first time, the original 4x4 didnt though and even today its still only "bronze" remember, thats download bonding but not upload bonding cert.

even then, its going to take time to make it through the channels to VM bargin basement CM products they seem to like buying, that most likely puts the top TNETC4840 chipset and its capabilitys out of your end user hands straight way.

assuming the best case (not very likely is it!) Virgin Media clearing of the analogue tv and re-shuffling the digital channels to make best use of the cleared freqs.

the 4x4 DS3 chipsets will still not be able to provide *neils/VMs stated 200Mbit by 2012 a MAX of 160Mbit/sD x 120Mbit/sU remember.

and you dont/cant run your kit at 100% spec ever, so it means these 8x4 DS3 chipsets/SOC are required to be purchased first and OEMs putting them in some CM/STB for VM to then buy off the shelf.

http://www.lightreading.com/document...63565&site=cdn
"
Peter Percosan, executive director of broadband strategy for TI's Digital Connected Home business, calls that original 4x4 configuration the "meat and potatoes version" of the Docsis 3.0 platform, because it's supporting the near-term wideband requirements for MSOs in United States, Canada, and parts of Europe.

While that version should meet those needs for another 12 to 18 months, the new eight-channel version is more likely to play a broader role in 2010 and beyond."
...

"
Video options
However, thanks to an analog front end and an extension TI calls "Quad QAM," the same chipset can also also accomodate the cable operator's legacy digital video services, essentially creating a broadband-powered "video gateway." TI is adding that function through the integration of silicon tuners from Microtune Inc. (Nasdaq: TUNE - message board).

In yet another "intermediate" configuration, the new Puma 5 enables operators to "extract" up to four of the eight downstream channels flowing into the device and tune them to a specific frequency in the cable operator's spectrum for the delivery of the MSO's legacy video service. In that scenario, the chip performs as a QAM/IP hybrid.

Percosan holds that the new chip is smart enough to take in an MPEG transport video stream (how most cable operators transport digital video today) and convert it to IP. That's helpful, for example, if a customer wants to watch a broadcast channel via a PC on the home network. Conversely, that same gateway/advanced-set-top can ingest IP video and reconstitute it as MPEG, making it viewable on a traditional television. "

...

"
Although all configurations are powered by TI's baseline Docsis 3.0 silicon and software, each has its own designation in TI lingo.

The TNETC4820 is the advanced set-top/multimedia configuration;
the TNETC4830 is the data-only cable modem platform; and
the TNETC4840 is for data and video apps that require more than four downstream channels.

But which configuration option is expected to hold sway? In Europe, operators are trending toward an architecture that combines the modem with the video decode function, Percosan says. Telenet of Belgium, for example, already uses an architecture that pairs a set-top with a stand-alone cable modem.

If the price is right, some U.S. MSOs are looking to use it in advance set-tops with support for IP-based devices hanging off the home network.

"It's kind of a mix right now," he adds. "But everyone who wants to be serious in this converged legacy digital video/IP space needs to embrace this approach."
"

* http://www.digitalspy.co.uk/digitalt...s-by-2012.html

meanwhile the costs of DocSis 3 rollout to the end users are being talked about here.
http://www.lightreading.com/document.asp?doc_id=163546

"Charter Talks Docsis CostsSEPTEMBER 11, 2008Discuss >Cable's ballyhooed Docsis 3.0 technology aims to pump out speeds in excess of 100 Mbit/s, but little has been said in terms of how much it will cost operators to wire up systems for the speedy platform. Now we have an answer: About $8 per customer.

That's according to Charter Communications Inc. (Nasdaq: CHTR - message board) president and CEO Neil Smit, who presented late Wednesday afternoon at the Merrill Lynch & Co. Inc. conference in Marina Del Ray, Calif.

No one bothered asking Smit whether the $8 includes the wideband modems.

However, a source who's seen the numbers tells Cable Digital News that it doesn't -- nor does it include the costs of provisioning services on those modems.

Charter's estimate, which the source says is actually in the range of $8 to $10 per home, covers the costs for Docsis 3.0 "network enablement," including the necessary cable modem termination system (CMTS) and routing gear. That cost range will also vary depending on the MSO's deployment starting point.

"

---------- Post added at 23:29 ---------- Previous post was at 23:13 ----------

BTW do we have a current cable freq map of the VM useage handy ? to see were hey can perhasp clear off large sections of freqs for this newsest 8x4 DS3 SOC to use?

[Ignitionnet]

Well as it sounds like they don't have any more than 3.2MHz free for DOCSIS 3 upstream at the moment they're a tad limited downstream.

You've no chance of seeing a usage map that's actually accurate. Depending who you speak to and which area you're in where the network is 550MHz, 750MHz or 860MHz top end and 30MHz, 40MHz, 55MHz or 65MHz upstream, and if you're actually looking at what's there or what PR say is there

I note a number of operators in the US, pretty much all of them of any size, are either working on or complete with upgrades to their cable networks to 1GHz in some areas to accomodate more HD content, a number are also using Switched Digital Video.

Though as we know Virgin's investment in their cable network is pretty small. It's that irritating thing that's the sad necessity to delivering the 'fibre optic broadband' to the customers.

[Haighy]

To join in one half of this discussion :-)
If you try speednet for different servers you can kind of see the problem of lag and latency.
If I click on Maidenhead I get a 17 ms ping but only 8 meg download.
Clicking on London gives me a 39 sec ping, slower, but I get a 19 meg download. Speed and volume are not always closely linked.
Clicking on American servers gives me pings of over 100, on the few I tried.
AS has been said elsewhere the width of your pipe doesn't make much difference unless you fill it, or someone else does :-)

[blistr]

as to my original question , whens 50 meg available lol

[Ignitionnet]

Only VM know and they aren't really telling.

[|Kippa|]

Do you think the first of the 50mbit rollout will be before christmas time?

[Toto]

Originally Posted by |Kippa|

Do you think the first of the 50mbit rollout will be before christmas time?

Yes, I think so.

[Fatec]

Originally Posted by Toto

Yes, I think so.

It will, rollout date is actually alot closer than people think