Relationships and religion

[Xaccers]

Well muslims just don't believe jesus was the son of god, but was a prophet and is part of their religion

[Tiptoes]

Originally Posted by towny

True, but that observation does not preclude the possibility that only one view is correct; nor does it preclude the possibility of identifying which view is correct.

But it's far too late to open a debate on philosophical relativism, so I'm going to bed.

No neeed to try and confuse the matter....lets keep it in terms people will understand rather than trying to use complex theories and issues to divert people away from the blatant contradictions......................

So in identifying that only "one" view is correct you cannot possibly be someone who also "respects other peoples religious beliefs.........."


See this is exactly what im talking about ..religion contradicts itself...

[Xaccers]

Respect the right of someone to be wrong?

Originally Posted by towny

I think the JW who came to your door had a very odd point of view indeed, certainly if he claimed the Bible as his authority. But the JWs have a number of very odd beliefs, IMO.

Ok, look, I'm *not* trying to "bash Christians" here, but couldn't they say the same thing about your beliefs?

Other "odd beliefs" amongst those who call themselves "Christian" include Papal Infallibility, the ordination of women bishops, whether homosexuality is "right" or not and the ordination of gay bishops, the doctrine of "infantile damnation" and a great many more besides.

Now if they are *all* Christians and they all read the same (well, more or less the same, eg with or without the Apocrypha or the King James "thou shalt not suffer a witch to live") Bible, how can they have such "odd beliefs" which other Christians disagree with so vehemently?

To call one Christian "sect's" beliefs "odd" tends to imply that ones own beliefs are "not odd" and, therefore "better" or "more right".

Originally Posted by Tiptoes

No neeed to try and confuse the matter....lets keep it in terms people will understand rather than trying to use complex theories and issues to divert people away from the blatant contradictions......................

So in identifying that only "one" view is correct you cannot possibly be someone who also "respects other peoples religious beliefs.........."


See this is exactly what im talking about ..religion contradicts itself...

Begging your pardon, but when you talk about "God's point of view from a [insert religion(s) here] perspective" it's you that's introducing blatant contradictions, and you're expressing a relativist point of view whether or not you choose to give it that name.

It's also completely bogus of you to draw the (rather smug, I feel) conclusion that "religion contradicts itself" as if that somehow proved something. There is no such thing as a single entity called 'religion'. Religion is a word used to describe an aspect of human life - an aspect that takes a great many competing and mutually exclusive forms. Religion cannot contradict 'itself' because it is not a single entity.

And as for respecting other people's beliefs - your understanding of what it is to 'respect' someone is so deeply immature as to be not worth arguing. If you think that in order to respect someone you have to agree with them, you have a lot to learn.

Originally Posted by Graham

To call one Christian "sect's" beliefs "odd" tends to imply that ones own beliefs are "not odd" and, therefore "better" or "more right".

EDIT in order to be a little less facetious...

All religion ultimately claims to have the exclusively 'right' answer. That's offensive to modern Western ears because it's now considered bad form to tell someone else their belief (especially religious) is wrong, but you can't really avoid it.

[Tiptoes]

Originally Posted by towny

Begging your pardon, but when you talk about "God's point of view from a [insert religion(s) here] perspective" it's you that's introducing blatant contradictions, and you're expressing a relativist point of view whether or not you choose to give it that name.

It's also completely bogus of you to draw the (rather smug, I feel) conclusion that "religion contradicts itself" as if that somehow proved something. There is no such thing as a single entity called 'religion'. Religion is a word used to describe an aspect of human life - an aspect that takes a great many competing and mutually exclusive forms. Religion cannot contradict 'itself' because it is not a single entity.

And as for respecting other people's beliefs - your understanding of what it is to 'respect' someone is so deeply immature as to be not worth arguing. If you think that in order to respect someone you have to agree with them, you have a lot to learn.

So basically any religion can of its own free will define "G-ds" view................... but pretend,while it is preaching this, that it actually respects the beliefs of others?

I dont follow.. Please explain the dymanics of "having one view" and "dimissing anothers"

If you arent to dismiss others Beleifs how can you possibly hold to your own view?

Turning Black and White into grey wont wash with me.....

[Russ]

Originally Posted by Tiptoes

So basically any religion can of its own free will define "G-ds" view................... but pretend,while it is preaching this, that it actually respects the beliefs of others?

I dont follow.. Please explain the dymanics of "having one view" and "dimissing anothers"

If you arent to dismiss others Beleifs how can you possibly hold to your own view?

Turning Black and White into grey wont wash with me.....

On a personal level, do you think I respect the beliefs of followers of other faiths and atheists?

[Tiptoes]

Originally Posted by Russ D

On a personal level, do you think I respect the beliefs of followers of other faiths and atheists?

I believe that if your religious, following a religion, then your idealism should be to follow it, to the letter and to a point where you almost become biggoted.

I agree that people will follow some values of all different faiths, in part, to enrich their lives so agree with it, if they feel they get something out of it.

BUT I also beleive that only those who follow the faith to the letter and totally agree with their faiths priinciples dismissing other religious faiths are the ones who are true to their faith..............

And therefore are the only ones who are entitled to speak with any authority on the matter...

[Russ]

That's great, but you didn't really answer me....

[msec]

Originally Posted by Tiptoes

So in identifying that only "one" view is correct you cannot possibly be someone who also "respects other peoples religious beliefs.........."

See this is exactly what im talking about ..religion contradicts itself...

I disagree - I consider it entirely possible to hold an exclusive religious view while giving respect to other people's beliefs. Respect for a belief doesn't require holding that belief, simply a determination not to belittle the person holding the belief solely on the grounds that he/she holds it.

I think the crux of the question hangs on what you mean by 'respect' with regard to other people's religious beliefs. I suspect that the respect religious people ask for is the recognition that the beliefs they hold, they hold genuinely and sincerely, and that when their beliefs are questioned, it is done without ridicule and contempt, but in a spirit of seeking truth.

/msec

[Bex]

Originally Posted by msec

I disagree - I consider it entirely possible to hold an exclusive religious view while giving respect to other people's beliefs. Respect for a belief doesn't require holding that belief, simply a determination not to belittle the person holding the belief solely on the grounds that he/she holds it.

I think the crux of the question hangs on what you mean by 'respect' with regard to other people's religious beliefs. I suspect that the respect religious people ask for is the recognition that the beliefs they hold, they hold genuinely and sincerely, and that when their beliefs are questioned, it is done without ridicule and contempt, but in a spirit of seeking truth.

/msec

exactly.....i think this is what it is to respect other people's beliefs...as a christian i am more than willing to discuss my beliefs or the beliefs of anyone else, whether they be part of a certain religious movement or whether they are athesitic in their beliefs, but it should be done in a way which does not belittle that person's belief system..... debating the issues surrounding one's belief is fair enough but when it becomes personal or ridiculing then i do not think it is right......

Originally Posted by Tiptoes

So basically any religion can of its own free will define "G-ds" view................... but pretend,while it is preaching this, that it actually respects the beliefs of others?

I dont follow.. Please explain the dymanics of "having one view" and "dimissing anothers"

If you arent to dismiss others Beleifs how can you possibly hold to your own view?

Turning Black and White into grey wont wash with me.....

And posting silly riddles won't wash with me.

I am free to say that I believe God has revealed facts a, b, and c to me and others who share the same faith. I am also free to say that another person, following a different religion, is mistaken when he claims x, y, and z to be true and a, b, and c to be false.

There is much that is mutually contradictory between, for example, Christianity and Islam. As a Christian I hold Jesus to be God incarnate as a man. Muslims find this offensive, because they believe Jesus was a prophet like Moses and to elevate him to divine status makes me guilty of both taking glory from God and promoting polytheism - belief in many gods, which Muslims passionately disagree with.

However, despite believing me to be quite mistaken on this point, the Qu'ran demands that Christians, as 'people of the Book', are to be respected.

So a Qu'ran-believing Muslim both disagrees with my theology, but also respects me as a follower of a religion mentioned in some of the writings he considers holy.

Just one of many, many examples of how it is possible for a reasonable human being to both disagree with someone and yet respect them at the same time.

[Tiptoes]

Originally Posted by towny

And posting silly riddles won't wash with me.

I am free to say that I believe God has revealed facts a, b, and c to me.................

So you spoke to G-d? or did he write to you?

Perhaps his holiness has learned how to use email and t'internet.

Do you think he shall speak to me if I ask nicely enough?

Maybe he can come here and speak for himself.. rather than have his underlings do his work for him.......

Originally Posted by Tiptoes

So you spoke to G-d? or did he write to you?

Perhaps his holiness has learned how to use email and t'internet.

Do you think he shall speak to me if I ask nicely enough?

Maybe he can come here and speak for himself.. rather than have his underlings do his work for him.......

Really, if I thought your question was in any way sincere I'd take the trouble to answer you. As it is, I'd far rather go and have my tea.