[Update] The UK votes to leave the EU

[pip08456]

Originally Posted by Osem

You should try London there are loads of Turks (and Kurds) here...

Just to reiterate, for those who might conflate the issues, not being keen to open the EU door to the whole of Turkey is not the same as hating Turkish people of whom I know quite a few personally and professionally.

Got to agree with you there, I've a few Turkish friends who have been here quite a few years.

Notwithstanding, opening the borders to every Tom, Dick and Harry from Turkey is a no-no as my Turkish friends have already said.

[Gavin78]

The only problem with this referendum is the public's view on any politician after this will we care to believe what any of them say?

There has been so many stories from both sides it makes it hard to believe any future party wanting to be prime minister

[Osem]

Originally Posted by Gavin78

The only problem with this referendum is the public's view on any politician after this will we care to believe what any of them say?

There has been so many stories from both sides it makes it hard to believe any future party wanting to be prime minister

I agree. This debate has taken politics to a new low IMHO.

This is stirring up potential resentment and problems for the future, especially if the vote is close which I believe it will be.

[pip08456]

Originally Posted by Osem

I agree. This debate has taken politics to a new low IMHO.

This is stirring up potential resentment and problems for the future, especially if the vote is close which I believe it will be.

Unfortuately you are correct.

[Jimmy-J]

I think the "remain" will win it by a country mile.

If they do I shudder to think what will happen.

[pip08456]

Originally Posted by Jimmy-J

I think the "remain" will win it by a country mile.

If they do then it is a decision we all have to go with.

[Big Brian]

Originally Posted by Hugh

Link, please?

Considering the Euro was only introduced in 1999, there wasn't much time before that...

Links are not necessary, it's experience that counts here. Look at the polls and see who are most likely to vote leave - the older generation. The same generation who voted in 1975.

It has nothing to do with the Euro and I never mentioned it.

The truth of the matter is the UK can't move without fear of infringing or breaking EU rules or laws. Policies have to be thought out very carefully in case they infringe these rules or laws and in some cases scrapped even if they would have been good for the country. Governments can and promise you the moon but they can't deliver without considering what the damned EU would do if legislation was passed. Politicians have been on Andrew Marr mentioning this. From memory, one was asked by the Prime Minister to do something and he said he couldn't as it would infringe on EU rules. The Governments would have been able to pass better legislation that would have benefited us and not the EU. Wouldn't it be better to have those decisions in our own hands?

When people talk about getting back our democracy, this is the kind of thing they are talking about, stuff like that.

Economically definitely. Again experience tells us as does common sense that all that money we send and have sent to the EU regardless of what we do or don't get back would have been better spent in the UK. Over the years we must have sent trillions to the EU. It's debatable but the National debt would be nowhere near what it is if we had not been in the EU. It's doubtful our NHS would be in the state it's in had we not had to send all that money to the EU.

Just think laterally about things and you will see the sense. There is no substitute for experience. Younger people don't know anything other than being in the EU and so have nothing to compare it with and there will be most likely to vote to stay.

We were in the crap in the 70s not because we weren't in the EEC but because the workers held the country to ransom.

Then there is the biggie and probably the most important reason to vote leave. We are in a club we did not vote to be in. We voted to be in a single market to make trade in Europe much easier and that would be fine had it stayed that way. I would probably vote in today's climate to remain if that was still the case. However, we are not in the Common Market, we are in or heading towards a Political Union. Britain can't stay in the EU for the simple reason we don't want Political Union. With Schengen that is exactly what we will get. If we stay, we will be pushed further out into the cold.

Remain talk about having a voice if we stay but the truth is the voice will get smaller the more the EU integrates.

Experience friend there is no substitute.

[Julian]

Originally Posted by Big Brian

Links are not necessary, it's experience that counts here. Look at the polls and see who are most likely to vote leave - the older generation. The same generation who voted in 1975.

It has nothing to do with the Euro and I never mentioned it.

The truth of the matter is the UK can't move without fear of infringing or breaking EU rules or laws. Policies have to be thought out very carefully in case they infringe these rules or laws and in some cases scrapped even if they would have been good for the country. Governments can and promise you the moon but they can't deliver without considering what the damned EU would do if legislation was passed. Politicians have been on Andrew Marr mentioning this. From memory, one was asked by the Prime Minister to do something and he said he couldn't as it would infringe on EU rules. The Governments would have been able to pass better legislation that would have benefited us and not the EU. Wouldn't it be better to have those decisions in our own hands?

When people talk about getting back our democracy, this is the kind of thing they are talking about, stuff like that.

Economically definitely. Again experience tells us as does common sense that all that money we send and have sent to the EU regardless of what we do or don't get back would have been better spent in the UK. Over the years we must have sent trillions to the EU. It's debatable but the National debt would be nowhere near what it is if we had not been in the EU. It's doubtful our NHS would be in the state it's in had we not had to send all that money to the EU.

Just think laterally about things and you will see the sense. There is no substitute for experience. Younger people don't know anything other than being in the EU and so have nothing to compare it with and there will be most likely to vote to stay.

We were in the crap in the 70s not because we weren't in the EEC but because the workers held the country to ransom.

Then there is the biggie and probably the most important reason to vote leave. We are in a club we did not vote to be in. We voted to be in a single market to make trade in Europe much easier and that would be fine had it stayed that way. I would probably vote in today's climate to remain if that was still the case. However, we are not in the Common Market, we are in or heading towards a Political Union. Britain can't stay in the EU for the simple reason we don't want Political Union. With Schengen that is exactly what we will get. If we stay, we will be pushed further out into the cold.

Remain talk about having a voice if we stay but the truth is the voice will get smaller the more the EU integrates.

Experience friend there is no substitute.

The newspaper of choice for pensioners says different today...

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2016...are-deserting/

[heero_yuy]

Leave or stay it looks like a rocky road ahead for Dave and Gideon:

“It is deeply irresponsible to talk down the British economy in this way and it is incredible to me what these people will do to save their careers.” Another added: “The problem going forward is how on earth can these people be believed ever again?

“I think it is impossible, absolutely impossible that David Cameron can reunite the party after this. The idea that he can bounce into the next 1922 [Committee] meeting after the referendum and say, 'Chaps well it was a fair fight let’s move on’. It was not a fair fight – you behaved absolutely terribly.”

Linky

[Big Brian]

Originally Posted by heero_yuy

Leave or stay it looks like a rocky road ahead for Dave and Gideon:



Linky

What amazes me and I have to ask this question given Cameron said if he didn't get a deal that was good for the UK he'd campaign to leave the EU. He didn't get a deal though thinks he did. Fair enough but the big question here is Can he really believe what he's saying about the economy, housing, tourism, holidays, trade, etc. if he was planning to argue for leave? I guess what I'm trying to argue is. If he didn't get the deal would the crap he and remain are coming out with about the above subjects still stand?

What it tells me is they don't have a scoobie what will happen if we stay or leave. We can hazard educated guesses based on knowledge, experience and common sense and probably be right. This is one of the reasons I don't believe all the fire and brimstone they are coming out with simply because he was prepared to argue the other way.........OR WAS HE? We know he's a liar!

Those who wish to remain should be asking themselves these questions.

http://www.independent.co.uk/voices/...-a7043681.html

Leave campaign big wig Nigel Lawson once famously called the NHS the closest thing Britain has to a national religion. Since then, it’s been received wisdom that posing as champion of the beloved health service is generally a decent electoral strategy.

No wonder then, that in recent days the Leave campaign has made a great deal of noise about the fact that £350m a week could be spent on it, if only we were to leave the European Union.

Let’s leave aside for the moment the fact that members of Vote Leave’s campaign committee have in the past argued for the break-up of the NHS; that MEP Daniel Hannan said in 2009 that the health service was a 60-year-old “mistake” that had “made people iller”.

It would also be churlish to mention that we never heard a peep about the NHS from Michael Gove, Iain Duncan Smith and other Cabinet colleagues backing Brexit in the past six years, despite it undergoing the most sustained funding squeeze in its history as a result of their Government’s policy. Waiting times have increased, nine in 10 hospitals have overspent their budgets, and morale among staff is flat-lining, so one would have thought that those who care deeply about the NHS and had a powerful platform in government to say something about it might have done so, but there we are.

Now that was what occurred to me when I watched the political broadcast last night on behalf of the Leave campaign..Not impressed at all.

Only one actual fact was mentioned and others so obviously left out and the rest was just insinuation..I need more than this to convince me.

[Kursk]

Originally Posted by Maggy J

I need more than this to convince me.

May I ask, in the politest terms possible, why a lady of your age and experience needs 'convincing? Surely, there is enough information available to you and it is simply a matter of sifting the wheat from the chaff?

In 1975, the vote was to join the European Economic Community; it was a trade arrangement. No-one in this Country, until 23 June 2016, will vote to be in or out of the European Union which is an entirely different beast.

Out is the only choice for anyone who has thought this through.

[Big Brian]

Originally Posted by Maggy J

http://www.independent.co.uk/voices/...-a7043681.html





Now that was what occurred to me when I watched the political broadcast last night on behalf of the Leave campaign..Not impressed at all.

Only one actual fact was mentioned and others so obviously left out and the rest was just insinuation..I need more than this to convince me.

I remember Lawson saying that very well. It's been a stick used in elections indeed and still is. However, I know, and any sensible Leave voter will or should know there won't be £350 m per week to spend on anything, it is more likely to be half that but it's still a hell of a lot of candy over a year and even more, the lifetime of a Parliament. Some of the £350 m would have to be used on trade agreements with the EU.

The NHS is actually the envy of the world.

Originally Posted by Kursk

May I ask, in the politest terms possible, why a lady of your age and experience needs 'convincing? Surely, there is enough information available to you and it is simply a matter of sifting the wheat from the chaff?

In 1975, the vote was to join the European Economic Community; it was a trade arrangement. No-one in this Country, until 23 June 2016, will vote to be in or out of the European Union which is an entirely different beast.

Out is the only choice for anyone who has thought this through.

I want everyone to have ALL the facts..then it's truly a democratic decision made by the informed..Oh and I don't like the nation being lied to by BOTH sides.