Coronavirus

[Sephiroth]

Damien is right.

Lockdown until a suitable number of the population have been vaccinated and are immune. It's last chance saloon, isn't it?

[1andrew1]

Originally Posted by Damien

And do what though? They built the Nightingale hospitals but can't really staff them. Even if they had started a year ago in anticipation of COVID being an outbreak there is no way they could have addressed the staffing issue, an increase in Doctors and Nurses would have to be a product of policy changes years ago. You can't scale up staff.

The NHS is thankfully seeing less of a strain of the seasonal flu but that advantage has been drowned out by the level of COVID cases.

The only realistic measure to stop cases is to stop the spread by reducing the number of connections the public has. We're talking stricter lockdown measures and more places being closed.

Regrettably so. A robust lockdown enabled Wuhan to hold a massive pool party a few months ago. Forget travel outside your area or catching flights abroad. Not a wishy-washy lockdown with schools and universities open. A month of tough love and the country will be in a very strong position. BoJo needs to step up strongly against the noise from his party's Covidiots like Sir Graham Brady.

[jfman]

Originally Posted by OLD BOY

That didn’t work in Wales so why would it work here?

It actually did in Northern Ireland - they doubled the October holiday and halfed their cases.

We don’t need to shut the schools if there’s testing at the school gates.

Please wait while I laugh my arse off at the idea of this Government delivering mass testing on that scale.

The measures already in place have not had time to show results yet. Knee jerk reaction not required.

I hope your new year resolution isn't to be as consistently wrong about Covid-19. Maybe we will have a hot summer next year, eh?

---------- Post added at 00:33 ---------- Previous post was at 00:20 ----------

Originally Posted by Sephiroth

Damien is right.

Lockdown until a suitable number of the population have been vaccinated and are immune. It's last chance saloon, isn't it?

It's the last roll of the dice. The Oxford vaccine is unfortunately the only solution the UK Government have in town that will see any semblance of normality before Q3 2021. Hence our rush to approve it.

The good news is the Oxford Vaccine has been approved: https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/health-55280671

This is the one that's easier to distribute and administer, this is the one we have the most orders for.

It's a race against time now.

---------- Post added at 07:24 ---------- Previous post was at 07:11 ----------

Essex calls a major incident: https://news.sky.com/story/covid-19-...cases-12175318

[OLD BOY]

Originally Posted by Sephiroth

Damien is right.

Lockdown until a suitable number of the population have been vaccinated and are immune. It's last chance saloon, isn't it?

The emergency measures are necessary only until the vaccine has reduced hospital admissions to a safe level. The vaccine alone should ensure that happens by February or March. We don't have to wait for herd immunity before we can go back to normal since most people do not get ill enough (or at all) to be taken into hospital.

[heero_yuy]

Originally Posted by jfman

Please wait while I laugh my arse off at the idea of this Government delivering mass testing on that scale.

Do you really think that Kier's rabble could have done any better? ROFLMAO

It's down to the civil servants to deliver and that they have failed to do and will continue to do so.

Mass test and trace: No. Mass vaccination: no.

[OLD BOY]

Originally Posted by jfman

I hope your new year resolution isn't to be as consistently wrong about Covid-19. Maybe we will have a hot summer next year, eh?[COLOR="Silver"]

I have not been consistently wrong on this. It is true that influenza is seasonal and many thought that this coronavirus would be too in the early days, but the concept of 'herd immunity' was clearly correct because that is exactly what will see us through this crisis. Thankfully, we will be able to achieve it through the new vaccines coming through, but even a couple of months ago, there was no guarantee that we would get one, let alone this early.

I have consistently said that unless you let the virus take its course, we run the risk of mutations, which could have serious consequences. What have we seen in recent weeks? At least one serious mutation that is spreading much faster, although thankfully it does not appear to be more deadly and is still treatable via the vaccine. It is worrying, however, that it is affecting younger people more, and if that trend is enhanced by further mutations, there could be very serious consequences.

I remain of the view that we should protect the vulnerable and let the virus pass quickly through the healthy population. That way, and now with the aid of the vaccine, we will achieve herd immunity all the quicker.

However, with hospital admissions causing major problems, I accept that it is likely that the government will keep tough measures in place until February or March, despite the PM's natural instincts.

---------- Post added at 08:27 ---------- Previous post was at 08:19 ----------

Originally Posted by heero_yuy

Do you really think that Kier's rabble could have done any better? ROFLMAO

It's down to the civil servants to deliver and that they have failed to do and will continue to do so.

Mass test and trace: No. Mass vaccination: no.

Agreed. The civil servants provided over-optimistic information to the government, and the government trusted them to achieve those promises. When they could not be fulfilled, the government took the blame. They have had to withdraw schemes that clearly did not work and they have come to the realisation that the government itself must be more hands-on, which is not how things are supposed to be.

Feathers are being ruffled in the civil service due to the frustration of ministers that these plonkers couldn't organise a fry up in a chip shop, and a big reorganisation is coming. In the meantime, the government is taking control of the situation and I think we can all see that things are really beginning to happen now.

BoJo’s supporters mantra - "it’s someone else’s fault".

His Government sets policy and direction, and on COVID, it has been erratic and contradictory.

His Government bent the rules to ensure that companies with no experience in supplying PPE were given huge contracts which often failed to deliver.

His Government outsourced Track and Trace with little oversight, and that’s gone so well.

The First Rule of being in charge is "The Buck Stops Here" - the person/people in charge are responsible, and blaming those further down the line is just trying to avoid responsibility.

"things are really beginning to happen now" - the entire country going into lockdown, COVID case numbers highest ever, more and more people unemployed; things are really beginning to happen, but perhaps not in the manner you meant...

Originally Posted by heero_yuy

It's down to the civil servants to deliver and that they have failed to do and will continue to do so.

God forbid we ever hold the Government accountable for running the country.

It's always someone else's fault.

[1andrew1]

Originally Posted by heero_yuy

Do you really think that Kier's rabble could have done any better? ROFLMAO

It's down to the civil servants to deliver and that they have failed to do and will continue to do so.

Mass test and trace: No. Mass vaccination: no.

It's the government who awarded emergency contracts to inexperienced firms, some on the basis of being friendly with MPs and Ministers. It's the government who outsourced Track and Trace to private companies without consulting Councils and GPs on the best way of doing this. It's the government who delayed the lockdown Sage was asking for in the Autumn.

It may well have had the best of intentions in all these matters. But the results have been sub-optimal resulting in the worst economic performance of any G7 country and high rate of fatalities.

But I do give full credit to the government for approving the Pfizer-BioNtech first and getting the first person in the World vaccinated.

[papa smurf]

Originally Posted by Damien

God forbid we ever hold the Government accountable for running the country.

It's always someone else's fault.

There could be a job for you in politics

[Pierre]

Originally Posted by Damien

And do what though?

Contrary to many other people on this forum, I am not a health care expert, immunologist or Virologist.

But they have had nine months notice to plan for this scenario and failed to.

This current scenario must have been a “what if” question way back.

A second wave was predicted, usual winter pressures were predicted. So none of this should have been a surprise. The only variable is this new strain that has increased the infection rate in parts of the country.

[denphone]

Originally Posted by Damien

God forbid we ever hold the Government accountable for running the country.

It's always someone else's fault.

Strange how they did not use the same whataboutery tactic when other governments have been running the country.

If responsible governments make mistakes they should own their mistakes and not divert the blame elsewhere.

Originally Posted by Pierre

Contrary to many other people on this forum, I am not a health care expert, immunologist or Virologist.

But they have had nine months notice to plan for this scenario and failed to.

Neither am I but at the same time, it's possible there is no good answer. As much as we should hold the Government and the NHS to come up with solutions we should also acknowledge that some problems aren't perfectly solved.

There is a pandemic. It's spread by human interaction. The more people interact the more people catch it, a subset of which will end up on hospital and a further subset will end up in ICU. The 'experts' have come up with a vaccine in record time and they've also discovered treatments which reduce the ICU admittance rate and the death rate.

But still the numbers are too much to deal with.

Yes there has been a failure here but the only failure I can see is the lack of a lockdown coming into December? We cannot scale hospital capacity easily.

[jfman]

Originally Posted by heero_yuy

Do you really think that Kier's rabble could have done any better? ROFLMAO

It's down to the civil servants to deliver and that they have failed to do and will continue to do so.

Mass test and trace: No. Mass vaccination: no.

It’s equally up to Government to promise what’s deliverable - not what makes for a good headline to distract from whatever disaster happens on a particular day. See Operation Moonshot.

Blaming the Civil Service is simply laughable.

---------- Post added at 09:57 ---------- Previous post was at 09:49 ----------

Originally Posted by OLD BOY

I have not been consistently wrong on this. It is true that influenza is seasonal and many thought that this coronavirus would be too in the early days, but the concept of 'herd immunity' was clearly correct because that is exactly what will see us through this crisis. Thankfully, we will be able to achieve it through the new vaccines coming through, but even a couple of months ago, there was no guarantee that we would get one, let alone this early.

I have consistently said that unless you let the virus take its course, we run the risk of mutations, which could have serious consequences. What have we seen in recent weeks? At least one serious mutation that is spreading much faster, although thankfully it does not appear to be more deadly and is still treatable via the vaccine. It is worrying, however, that it is affecting younger people more, and if that trend is enhanced by further mutations, there could be very serious consequences.

How does letting a virus infect more people reduce the chances of mutation?

I remain of the view that we should protect the vulnerable and let the virus pass quickly through the healthy population. That way, and now with the aid of the vaccine, we will achieve herd immunity all the quicker.

Even with a vaccine announced this morning you still persist with this flawed mantra.

However, with hospital admissions causing major problems, I accept that it is likely that the government will keep tough measures in place until February or March, despite the PM's natural instincts.[COLOR="Silver"]

The PM’s natural instincts appear to be to ignore Sage, go public with some bluster and create a distraction supported by his poodles in the media.

Agreed. The civil servants provided over-optimistic information to the government, and the government trusted them to achieve those promises.

Is there any evidence of this?

When they could not be fulfilled, the government took the blame. They have had to withdraw schemes that clearly did not work and they have come to the realisation that the government itself must be more hands-on, which is not how things are supposed

Feathers are being ruffled in the civil service due to the frustration of ministers that these plonkers couldn't organise a fry up in a chip shop, and a big reorganisation is coming. In the meantime, the government is taking control of the situation and I think we can all see that things are really beginning to happen now.

I’m sorry I don’t have the Conservative Party HQ set of blue tinted sunglasses. If Civil Servants have failed to deliver (entirely speculative on your part) why do the Government continue to rely upon them and make announcements based on their advice?

Equally, it’s not Civil Servants who have squandered £22bn on Test and Trace that’s, as ever, private sector failures to unaccountable companies creaming off money from the taxpayer to over promise and under deliver. Sound familiar?

---------- Post added at 09:58 ---------- Previous post was at 09:57 ----------

Originally Posted by Pierre

Contrary to many other people on this forum, I am not a health care expert, immunologist or Virologist.

But they have had nine months notice to plan for this scenario and failed to.

This current scenario must have been a “what if” question way back.

A second wave was predicted, usual winter pressures were predicted. So none of this should have been a surprise. The only variable is this new strain that has increased the infection rate in parts of the country.

Government failure so bad even Pierre can see it!