[Update] The UK votes to leave the EU

[ntluser]

I think that we should all remember that "Dave's Deal" is only couched in general principles at present and that there will need to be further discussion with the other 27 leaders to finalise the details.

It's possible at this stage that any advantages supposedly gained could be edited out or indeed the other leaders could throw out out the deal altogether.

This would mean that that those voting to remain will have been deceived into staying and that the requirement for the UK to become part of a federal Europe will still be on the cards.

[Osem]

Originally Posted by ntluser

I think that we should all remember that "Dave's Deal" is only couched in general principles at present and that there will need to be further discussion with the other 27 leaders to finalise the details.

It's possible at this stage that any advantages supposedly gained could be edited out or indeed the other leaders could throw out out the deal altogether.

This would mean that that those voting to remain will have been deceived into staying and that the requirement for the UK to become part of a federal Europe will still be on the cards.

My we are cynical...

[ntluser]

Originally Posted by Osem

My we are cynical...

It could be that I'm being realistic.

We'll only really know for sure if the Remain camp win.

Unfortunately, if I'm right it will be too late to do anything.

Not long to wait now.

It will be interesting to see how this all turns out!!

[Osem]

Originally Posted by ntluser

It could be that I'm being realistic.

We'll only really know for sure if the Remain camp win.

Unfortunately, if I'm right it will be too late to do anything.

Not long to wait now.

It will be interesting to see how this all turns out!!

I'd bank on it. It's not just supposition - our experience of the EU to date would back that up. Move the goalposts, change the rules, anything to ensure the behemoth isn't put off course.

Personally, since both sides seem to be ramping up the FUD* factor, I think that most undecided voters will mistrust the information from both sides.

Quite a few undecideds I have spoken to are probably going to vote "Out" for one reason - immigration; by that, I mean controlled immigration, like countries such as Canada, NZ, Oz, etc. At the moment, it would appear the UK must accept anyone from the EU, and most people I know don't think that's acceptable. They find comments by Brexiteers like Gove who says five million Turks are coming to be fairly laughable (much like the 29 million Romanians and Bulgarians Nigel Farage said were coming here), but they see a slow drip, drip, drip gradually wearing down our services.

They're not being racist - they don't want unskilled people from any country, including our old colonies, coming here.

*FUD - Fear, Uncertainty, Doubt

[nomadking]

Originally Posted by Hugh

Personally, since both sides seem to be ramping up the FUD* factor, I think that most undecided voters will mistrust the information from both sides.

Quite a few undecideds I have spoken to are probably going to vote "Out" for one reason - immigration; by that, I mean controlled immigration, like countries such as Canada, NZ, Oz, etc. At the moment, it would appear the UK must accept anyone from the EU, and most people I know don't think that's acceptable. They find comments by Brexiteers like Gove who says five million Turks are coming to be fairly laughable (much like the 29 million Romanians and Bulgarians Nigel Farage said were coming here), but they see a slow drip, drip, drip gradually wearing down our services.

They're not being racist - they don't want unskilled people from any country, including our old colonies, coming here.

*FUD - Fear, Uncertainty, Doubt

NOBODY said 29 million WOULD come here. It said that 29m would be ALLOWED to, and that is correct, whichever way you look at it.

Originally Posted by nomadking

NOBODY said 29 million WOULD come here. It said that 29m would be ALLOWED to, and that is correct, whichever way you look at it.

Actually, what he said was that 29 million Romanians and Bulgarians may come here - the Earth may get destroyed by an mile-wide asteroid, but our politicians don't base their policies on that assumption...

What he actually said

“The opening of the doors to 29million Romanians and Bulgarians is going to become a huge issue.

“If I was a Bulgarian, I would be packing now, because 46% of that country is now living in poverty.

“Not relative poverty – Mr Cameron’s concept of poverty is that you haven’t got two four-wheel-drives – but genuine poverty.”

[Osem]

No we don't necessarily need policies to deal with 29m but unless we have some idea how many might/will come how on Earth can we expect our infrastructure to keep up? Why oh why wasn't a cap allowed beyond which any member state could opt out of free movement and shut the gates? Surely that would assist any planning and reduce the risk of vast numbers coming in over relatively short periods. Given that doing anything significant within London, in particular, takes years and involves huge disruption and expense, the prospect that its population can just carry on growing, as Khan supports, is frightening.

The EU will never allow us to control the numbers of EU citizens who can come here and the fact that there was no movement at all on this, despite the widely stated claim that the EU could swing to the right, destabilise or even implode if the UK leaves, says it all really. The Brussels elite would apparently rather risk the entire project than compromise on free movement. Such utter arrogance and intransigence doesn't bode well...

[pip08456]

Is not "The opening of the doors to 29million Romanians and Bulgarians" the same as "29m would be ALLOWED to"?

There is also this to consider.

"We think Mr Farage has cut a few corners here: police intelligence isn’t the same as conviction rates; 28,000 arrests isn’t the same as 28,000 people; 7 per cent of criminal networks isn’t the same as 7 per cent of crime.

Nevertheless, we ought to say that the Ukip leader is not plucking these claims of criminality out of thin air. They are based on real statements put out by various police forces, some of whom have real concerns about the activities of Romanian wrongdoers."

Source http://blogs.channel4.com/factcheck/...rimewave/18207

What's it going to be like with countless Turks as well?

[Osem]

Originally Posted by pip08456

Is not "The opening of the doors to 29million Romanians and Bulgarians" the same as "29m would be ALLOWED to"?

There is also this to consider.

"We think Mr Farage has cut a few corners here: police intelligence isn’t the same as conviction rates; 28,000 arrests isn’t the same as 28,000 people; 7 per cent of criminal networks isn’t the same as 7 per cent of crime.

Nevertheless, we ought to say that the Ukip leader is not plucking these claims of criminality out of thin air. They are based on real statements put out by various police forces, some of whom have real concerns about the activities of Romanian wrongdoers."

Source http://blogs.channel4.com/factcheck/...rimewave/18207

What's it going to be like with countless Turks as well?

Well officially they'll make a massive net contribution and there'll be no down side whatsoever...

[arcimedes]

The Turks are already here in Abingdon. Two Turkish barbers have opened recently and seem to be doing a roaring trade.

Originally Posted by arcimedes

The Turks are already here in Abingdon. Two Turkish barbers have opened recently and seem to be doing a roaring trade.

Excellent - one of the highlights of our annual holiday in TRNC is the visits to the Turkish barbers, for a haircut, shave, and facial cleansing/massage; we go three or four times in a fortnight (not the haircut, just the rest..).

On a more serious note, the response to my previous point highlights an issue with some Brexiteers - they will even argue with people who are going to vote the way they want them to...

[Gavin78]

Originally Posted by Hugh

On a more serious note, the response to my previous point highlights an issue with some Brexiteers - they will even argue with people who are going to vote the way they want them to...

You should listen to the in campaigners they even scare each other with WW3, planetary annihilation and galactic domination from alien invaders if we vote out.

[pip08456]

Originally Posted by Hugh

On a more serious note, the response to my previous point highlights an issue with some Brexiteers - they will even argue with people who are going to vote the way they want them to...

I was not arguing with you just pointing something out for others to digest.

[Osem]

Originally Posted by arcimedes

The Turks are already here in Abingdon. Two Turkish barbers have opened recently and seem to be doing a roaring trade.

You should try London there are loads of Turks (and Kurds) here...

Just to reiterate, for those who might conflate the issues, not being keen to open the EU door to the whole of Turkey is not the same as hating Turkish people of whom I know quite a few personally and professionally.

Our doors shouldn't be uncontrollably open to anyone.

Anyway it seems even Sturgeon agrees about the 'overblown' nature of the 'remain' debate.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politic...endum-36362047