Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]

[theciscokid]

Hello

I've been lurking for a while and i'm very interested in this subject.

I'm studying for my CCNA (Cisco Certified Network Associate) and this particular message prompted me to sign up and reply.

I've just read Poppers thread about "deep packet inspection" and you may wish to read about this.........

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Deep_packet_inspection



From a network perspective DPI is a genuine and perfectly proper function to exist.

It's very appropriate from within an ISP because in fact they are obligated to use such technology for the purposes of copyright enforcement,unfair use of bandwidth and other factors.

What seems to be going awry here is the misuse of this technology for financial gain. Phorm are exploiting this technology purely for there own benefit and will use isp's to do so.

I hope that Virgin Media do the right thing and dis-associate themselves from Phorm asap.

I agree with many posters here that this whole debacle is extremely damaging to VM.

My wish is to stay with VM because it's been a very reliable internet service. However, I WILL have to cancel my service with them and just hope that this exploitation and blatant breach of the DPA does not pass over to other providers.

Thanks for reading my rant

Awra best

Andy


PS. A fantastic letter to David Davis MP Captain!!!

[flashpaul]

As virgin are due to increase their prices in June does this give me an excuse to cancel my 12 month deal which started in Feb ?

The terms and conditions seem to indicate that I can cancel

I am not bothered about the price increase I just want to use the increase as a stick to beat vm with because of the phorm phiasco

Can anyone confirm if i can cancel ?

[theciscokid]

Hi

I don't think you can cancel because VM can change prices etc as per T&C's.

The cooling off period you had has since expired so to cancel now will cost you sorry to say.

I understand your reasoning

cheers

[Ravenheart]

Andy,

I'm glad you've decided to delurk

The whole Phorm debate is something that concerns us all, I was just watching a programme on BBC1 about identity theft, the experts are telling us to protect ourselves and our ISP's are teaming up with a 3rd party firm with a history in spyware adding another tier of risk to our online activity.

Like you I've had no problems with my internet from Telewest/VM and to have to drop down to a more unreliable dsl connection wouldn't be ideal.

Virgin have said in a letter replying to one of the forum members letters that they would distance themselves from anything that tarnished the Virgin brand.
Well Phorm certainly does that.

I find it amusing that the Virgin group promote themselves on the following page

http://www.virgin.com/AboutVirgin/Wh...vigateToPage=3

"Brilliant Customer Service" I'm sorry, but selling your customers privacy to a spyware company certainly isn't.

Good luck with your CCNA

Happy posting.

[flashpaul]

Here is an excerpt from there t & c's

Look at section 3 , this seems to say if they increase prices then you can cancel ?

J Ending this agreement

1. This agreement will continue until the end of the minimum period for each service you take. After the end of all relevant minimum periods, any party may end this agreement by giving the other 30 days' notice. You must pay any relevant usage charges and line rental up to the end of that 30-day notice period. You may also cancel a service after the end of its minimum period by giving us 30 days' notice.
2. If you end this agreement before the end of the minimum period for any of the services (other than in the circumstances outlined in section K or paragraph J3), you must immediately pay (to Virgin Media Payments) the balance of the line rental (if this applies) or the monthly charges (or both) that you would have paid for the rest of the minimum period for each separate service (based on the line rental and monthly charges that you are paying when your agreement ends). If you cancel any but not all of your services before the end of their minimum period, you must immediately pay (to Virgin Media Payments) the balance of the line rental (if this applies) or the monthly charges (or both) that you would have paid for the rest of the minimum period for those services (based on the line rental and monthly charges that you are paying when you cancel those services).

3. If:
1. we and/or Virgin Media Payments increase our charges under this agreement;
2. we make significant changes to the services so the services you are entitled to receive in return for the charges you pay are significantly altered or reduced; or
3. we and/or Virgin Media Payments make significant changes to the terms and conditions of this agreement (including the other legal stuff),
you may cancel those services affected without penalty by giving us at least 30 days' notice in writing. If you cancel any services in these circumstances, the increased charges will not apply to those services during the 30 day notice period and paragraph J2 will not apply if you cancel before the end of the minimum period. If you do not give us notice of cancellation within 30 days of any increase in charges or changes to the services or this agreement being notified to you or, if later, receipt of your first bill following such increase in charges, we and Virgin Media Payments will assume that you have accepted the increase in charges and the changes to the services and this agreement and you will no longer be able to cancel your services under this paragraph.

[lucevans]

Originally Posted by flashpaul

As virgin are due to increase their prices in June does this give me an excuse to cancel my 12 month deal which started in Feb ?

The terms and conditions seem to indicate that I can cancel

I am not bothered about the price increase I just want to use the increase as a stick to beat vm with because of the phorm phiasco

Can anyone confirm if i can cancel ?

Aren't the broadband prices staying the same? I only have internet with Virgin - No TV or Telephone - and I've always had paperless billing (or, at least, they've never sent me a paper one!) so presumably my bill doesn't go up on June 1st? Or have I misunderstood?

[theciscokid]

Thanks for the welcome Ravenheart

I've watched today's news with gusto.

Krishnan Guru Murthy from CH4 news really laid into the rep from BT. I really hope CH4 don't drop this subject!

I'm finding all this a bit deep for my very basic knowledge.My concerns lie with online banking security.Would Phorm be able to snoop on such info?Is this why Nationwide are issuing card readers for online transactions?

[theciscokid]

Originally Posted by flashpaul

Here is an excerpt from there t & c's

Look at section 3 , this seems to say if they increase prices then you can cancel ?

J Ending this agreement

1. This agreement will continue until the end of the minimum period for each service you take. After the end of all relevant minimum periods, any party may end this agreement by giving the other 30 days' notice. You must pay any relevant usage charges and line rental up to the end of that 30-day notice period. You may also cancel a service after the end of its minimum period by giving us 30 days' notice.
2. If you end this agreement before the end of the minimum period for any of the services (other than in the circumstances outlined in section K or paragraph J3), you must immediately pay (to Virgin Media Payments) the balance of the line rental (if this applies) or the monthly charges (or both) that you would have paid for the rest of the minimum period for each separate service (based on the line rental and monthly charges that you are paying when your agreement ends). If you cancel any but not all of your services before the end of their minimum period, you must immediately pay (to Virgin Media Payments) the balance of the line rental (if this applies) or the monthly charges (or both) that you would have paid for the rest of the minimum period for those services (based on the line rental and monthly charges that you are paying when you cancel those services).

3. If:
1. we and/or Virgin Media Payments increase our charges under this agreement;
2. we make significant changes to the services so the services you are entitled to receive in return for the charges you pay are significantly altered or reduced; or
3. we and/or Virgin Media Payments make significant changes to the terms and conditions of this agreement (including the other legal stuff),
you may cancel those services affected without penalty by giving us at least 30 days' notice in writing. If you cancel any services in these circumstances, the increased charges will not apply to those services during the 30 day notice period and paragraph J2 will not apply if you cancel before the end of the minimum period. If you do not give us notice of cancellation within 30 days of any increase in charges or changes to the services or this agreement being notified to you or, if later, receipt of your first bill following such increase in charges, we and Virgin Media Payments will assume that you have accepted the increase in charges and the changes to the services and this agreement and you will no longer be able to cancel your services under this paragraph.

My apologies flashpaul. It would certainly seem that you can cancel.

I hope the BB prices stay the same. We just cancelled our tv service cos it's totally useless. Freeview is much more reliable

[flashpaul]

I don't have paperless billing so my prices will go up
and I think that gives me the right to cancel !

If vm state in writing that I can leave if phorm is intorduced then I will stay put , otherwise I will cancel all my services

[lucevans]

Originally Posted by Incognitas

I'm finding all this a bit deep for my very basic knowledge.My concerns lie with online banking security.Would Phorm be able to snoop on such info?Is this why Nationwide are issuing card readers for online transactions?

Bank websites use HTTPS pages which are encrypted, so even if the Phorm profiler reads the contents (and they claim that it doesn't even try to), it's virtually impossible that they'll be able to decrypt them to gain any information - it would take a long-term brute-force attack using colossal amounts of processor power to even attempt this...

Other banks are also currently issuing card readers, but I think this is more to do with defeating keyloggers and phishing sites.

However, what people are concerned about is the possibilty that the Phorm kit will at least know which bank you are with, by logging the fact that you are visiting the same banking URL regularly - and that's something I wouldn't want advertisers to know about me.

---------- Post added at 22:52 ---------- Previous post was at 22:46 ----------

Originally Posted by flashpaul

I don't have paperless billing so my prices will go up
and I think that gives me the right to cancel !

I agree.

[theciscokid]

I'm sure you could cancel because of.........

3. If:
1. we and/or Virgin Media Payments increase our charges under this agreement;
2. we make significant changes to the services so the services you are entitled to receive in return for the charges you pay are significantly altered or reduced; or
3. we and/or Virgin Media Payments make significant changes to the terms and conditions of this agreement (including the other legal stuff),

Who knows how long VM will prevaricate with this sordid mess?

Your 12 month agreement could have well passed and it won't cost you either way.

Hope it works out for you mate

[CaptJamieHunter]

OK, here is the final version. Please feel free to use as a base for letters to educate MPs, MEPs, regulatory bodies, businesspeople and anyone with influence about what Phorm really is and how they and BT have acted.

Dear Mr Davis,

I should like to bring to your attention a number of worrying recent developments in the field of internet privacy and of the failure of the Office of the Information Commissioner to investigate what appear to be two clear breaches of the Data Protection Act and Regulation of Investigatory Powers Act by a major communications provider working with an advertising company.

You may already be aware that three major internet service providers (ISPs) have signed agreements with a company known as Phorm to sell to them the internet browsing data of their users as part of a "targeted advertising" scheme.

Computer news site The Register has uncovered a number of disturbing facts about Phorm including its previous involvement in spyware under a different name. Phorm prefer to spin this fact saying they were involved in adware. A cursory look at http://blogs.zdnet.com/Spyware/index.php?p=820, http://www.f-secure.com/sw-desc/peopleonpage.shtml and http://www.f-secure.com/sw-desc/apropos.shtml suggests differently, however.

Phorm make a number of claims about their "product" being "a gold standard in user privacy" but despite being present on The Register, CableForum and a number of weblogs they have failed to openly and honestly answer detailed technical questions and concerns put in the public domain.

The technology which causes greatest concern is that of Deep Packet Inspection and its use by this advertising company. This unit is installed by Phorm - the ISP has no access to it so cannot test, check or verify anything about the unit - and it inspects every packet of data which passes through it.

Everyone who works at home, be they home workers, members of Parliament, judges, would find their data being subjected to the kind of inspection only intended for law enforcement activities and which normally would only ever be available to a judge following due legal process but here will be available to a company with a very questionable history. Confidential Crown material worked on by
yourself or your Right Honourable colleagues, critically confidential business, personal or even security information could well be tapped under such a scheme.

A simple analogy is your daily post. Imagine if every piece of post was opened, read, its contents noted and then resealed before being given to you. But you don't know who the person reading your post is. You don't know where that information could reappear or how it could be used. You don't know how many confidences will be betrayed. Every piece of post. Letters from constituents, Parliamentary colleagues, business colleagues, friends, family, others raising issues with you as I am.

That is what Phorm is about. Financial gain from your personal activities and information.

You will understand now why I refer to the growing belief that Phorm is illegal under RIPA. Government advisors The Foundation for Information Policy Research has published an open letter to Richard Thomas, the Information Commissioner, stating this belief. This letter is at http://www.fipr.org/080317icoletter.html

Soon after this open letter appeared The Guardian newspaper recently rejected Phorm, saying that their "decision was in no small part down to the conversations we had internally about how this product sits with the values of our company." As polite yet devastating a put down as I have ever seen.

More recently The Register obtained proof that BT not only secretly tested this "product" in June 2007 but lied to cover up this fact. Customers were given various excuses for their concerns, but no customer was told the truth. The report is at http://www.theregister.co.uk/2008/03/17/bt_phorm_lies/

This issue took an even more serious turn when The Register revealed that it had seen documentary evidence confirming that "BT secretly intercepted and profiled the web browsing of 18,000 of its broadband customers in 2006 using advertising technology provided by 121Media, the alleged spyware company that changed its name to Phorm last year. BT Retail ran the "stealth" pilot without customer consent between 23 September and 6 October 2006."

This in addition to the secret 2007 tests. The Regulation of Investigatory Powers Act 2000 makes intercepting internet traffic without a warrant or consent an offence. It seems to me that illegally intercepting 18,000 customers' internet traffic is in breach of that legislation. As was the first secret test. I contend that BT must also be in breach of the Data Protection Act as the data was collected without customers' consent.

Please read the full report at http://www.theregister.co.uk/2008/04...rm_2006_trial/

BT claimed that there was nothing illegal about the trials but refused to answer a number of direct questions asked by The Register about Stratis Scleparis, the BT Retail CTO who became Phorm CTO after the first successful secret trial. BT preferred to hide behind a bland statement and refused to apologise to customers or acknowledge anything illegal took place.

The report is at http://www.theregister.co.uk/2008/04...orm_interview/

A number of people have already complained to the ICO but had little back in response.

Today I and others became aware that despite these facts coming to light, the ICO have said that there is definitely no official investigation by ICO with regards to Phorm. Neither is there any investigation with regards to the BT secret trials of 2006 and 2007.

I am led to believe the ICO are claiming that RIPA falls under the remit of the Home Office. The ICO seem unwilling to accept there should be an investigation into the activities of BT and Phorm. I should also add that the ICO were also extremely reluctant to divulge this information to a colleague and refused permission to quote them.

This cannot be acceptable from a public servant organisation.

This cannot be acceptable from the organisation created to "protect personal information" "provide information to individuals and organisations" and "take appropriate action when the law is broken."

If the ICO cannot or will not take responsibility for an investigation, why is this the case? Who has the legislative power to investigate this breach of 18,000 customers' privacy?

A major telcommunications company in the UK has betrayed the trust placed in it by its users. It and its accomplice, Phorm, should surely be brought to book for this flagrant violation of privacy legislation.

Is this really going to be allowed to pass by unchallenged?

One cannot help but wonder if the lack of action by the government and ICO is influenced in any way by the presence of former Labour minister Patricia Hewitt on the board of BT.

I am sure you appreciate that I and many others cannot understand why BT and Phorm are being allowed to breach internet users' privacy with complete disregard for their customers or the law.

I urge you to take up this issue with your colleagues in both Houses, the House Of Commons Select Committee on Science and Technology and the House Of Lords Science and Technology Committee.

Thank you for your time. If I may be of any further assistance to you please do not hesitate to get in touch.

Yours sincerely

[rogerdraig]

Originally Posted by flashpaul

As virgin are due to increase their prices in June does this give me an excuse to cancel my 12 month deal which started in Feb ?

The terms and conditions seem to indicate that I can cancel

I am not bothered about the price increase I just want to use the increase as a stick to beat vm with because of the phorm phiasco

Can anyone confirm if i can cancel ?

if they implement this some how with out it falling foul of the law it would still be enough of a change for us to leave the contract with out penalty anyway

[bigbadcol]

Originally Posted by Ravenheart

Here's the latest comment I've received on my blog.
From Phormcomsteam
For completeness, Apropos could be uninstalled by the user although it was designed so that competitors could not remove it. And like Sony, which found itself criticised for using rootkit technology to protect its copyrighted material, we offered a tool to uninstall the software (http://blogs.zdnet.com/Spyware/index.php?p=8200).

Great they post a dead link as evidence.

I work in IT support in a University and had a HUGE problem removing this from student systems.

Th eprocess was made more complicated by the strange folder and regestery names. The tool that 121 provided at the time could kill the PC to a point of needing a re-install. And if it did work it would leave reg keys and files behind,

So being easy for users to unintall the process went like this

work in safe mode
run a 3rd party fix tool
delete several regestery keys
delete 4 hidden and protected files from 4 directories all with scrambled names
uninstall 2 programs from add remove

Easy to remove - I spent so much time over this that I still get cold sweat ath the thought of it.

There are other removal ways but this is what I remember doing. I do remember the official tool was a bag of crap that was as bad as the infection.

They are lying b**te*ds