14-04-2020, 13:32
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#2131
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Sulking in the Corner
Join Date: Jul 2009
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Re: Coronavirus
Quote:
Originally Posted by mrmistoffelees
Here in lies the rub... it's not what YOU want. It's whats best for the health of the country as a whole. By this I mean the best for the vulnerable, the economy, the NHS staff and all other key workers.
I'm not keen on seeing monitoring the likes of Taiwan, Singapore & China have in place being implemented. However, if that's whats justifiably needed to help save as many people as possible until if or when a suitable vaccination is created or implemented. then it's just something that we're going to have to live with.
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jfman
For a country that prides itself on the Blitz spirit (not that most of the people who refer to it so often actually lived through the war) there’s an awful lot of people who are quite reluctant to just suck it up for 3-6 months.
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First, mrmistoffelees has presented an almost perfect oxymoron. I needn't elaborate.
Secons, jfman in answering mrmistoffelees' post didn't address that point (nor the oxymoron!). And - exactly what is "an awful lot of people who are quite reluctant ..."? What facts does that statement represent, jfman being so keen on facts? Sorry mate.
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Seph.
My advice is at your risk.
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14-04-2020, 13:35
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#2132
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067
Join Date: Jul 2007
Location: Middlesbrough
Age: 48
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Re: Coronavirus
Quote:
Originally Posted by Sephiroth
First, mrmistoffelees has presented an almost perfect oxymoron. I needn't elaborate.
Secons, jfman in answering mrmistoffelees' post didn't address that point (nor the oxymoron!). And - exactly what is "an awful lot of people who are quite reluctant ..."? What facts does that statement represent, jfman being so keen on facts? Sorry mate.
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Please, elaborate.... the post was written at speed as I'm doing several things at once.
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Nerves of steel, heart of gold, knob of butter......
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14-04-2020, 13:58
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#2133
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Sulking in the Corner
Join Date: Jul 2009
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Re: Coronavirus
Quote:
Originally Posted by mrmistoffelees
Please, elaborate.... the post was written at speed as I'm doing several things at once.
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Just me showing off. "The country as a whole" cannot be the same as the selective list you gave in the second part of the sentence.
True you qulified it by saying "by this I mean ...".
Hope you don't mind too much; I've got little better to do.
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Seph.
My advice is at your risk.
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14-04-2020, 14:29
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#2134
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Architect of Ideas
Join Date: Dec 2004
Posts: 10,439
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Re: Coronavirus
Quote:
If people are kicking off because of the lockdown, just think where would be if the lockdown had started earlier? Sound familiar?
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Sorry Seph. I get that you want to talk about anything but the Government response to Coronavirus, however “facts, facts, facts” simply will not do it when others get to freely opine on what they think is going through the minds of the population at large.
It’s nice to see Sir Patrick Vallance acknowledge German success in in dealing with coronavirus.
https://www.theguardian.com/world/20...-science-chief
Last edited by Paul; 14-04-2020 at 15:06.
Reason: stop, now
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14-04-2020, 15:05
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#2135
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Dr Pepper Addict
Cable Forum Team
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Posts: 27,821
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Re: Coronavirus
Enough of this bloody bickering again.
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14-04-2020, 15:12
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#2136
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cf.mega poster
Join Date: Feb 2012
Posts: 4,435
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Re: Coronavirus
Quote:
Originally Posted by jfman
Sorry Seph. I get that you want to talk about anything but the Government response to Coronavirus, however “facts, facts, facts” simply will not do it when others get to freely opine on what they think is going through the minds of the population at large.
It’s nice to see Sir Patrick Vallance acknowledge German success in in dealing with coronavirus.
https://www.theguardian.com/world/20...-science-chief
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It is clear to see that the UK has not made the correct decisions at the right time when compared to other countries.
What is also clear here is this handling of the crisis clearly puts an end to the myth of British exceptionalism, the theology that powered the Brexit crusade.
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14-04-2020, 15:34
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#2137
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laeva recumbens anguis
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Re: Coronavirus
It’s easy to be a Monday morning quarterback - hindsight is always 20/20...
Learning from our mistakes is the important thing, not pillorying people for them.
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14-04-2020, 16:56
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#2138
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cf.mega poster
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Re: Coronavirus
Quote:
Originally Posted by Hugh
It’s easy to be a Monday morning quarterback - hindsight is always 20/20...
Learning from our mistakes is the important thing, not pillorying people for them.
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I agree absolutely. I was once told that it is very rare that people do a job badly on purpose and that has stuck with ever since. Failures may be due to insufficient or incorrect information, misguided beliefs, insufficient authority to act and incorrect systems/tools. Malicious intent is very rare.
Now, once things have blown over, there should be a period of reflection, understanding what worked, what didn't and what could be improved if this happens again.
Now, if the lessons learned are not taken on board and acted on, that is a different story - we need to consider strongly if the people in charge are in the right jobs....
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14-04-2020, 17:12
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#2139
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cf.mega poster
Join Date: Feb 2012
Posts: 4,435
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Re: Coronavirus
Quote:
Originally Posted by Hugh
It’s easy to be a Monday morning quarterback - hindsight is always 20/20...
Learning from our mistakes is the important thing, not pillorying people for them.
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Not sure what this truism implies? Do not challenge why clearly wrong decisions were made?
If you are unable to determine why the wrong decision was made, who made it and what their reasoning was, you clearly run the risk of similarly bad decisions continuing to be made.
You can pillory people if you wish, I am more interesting in who made the decisions, when they made them and why they made them. In understanding this, you can learn from the process in time to save lives in the near future.
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14-04-2020, 17:25
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#2140
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Rise above the players
Join Date: Mar 2008
Location: Wokingham
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Re: Coronavirus
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mr K
The economy or lives ? The economy is going to come second.
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It's not one or the other, and remember that if we ruin the economy by having a hugely extended period of lockdown, more people will lose their jobs as businesses fold and many will be plunged into poverty, which itself causes deaths. It is a matter of judgement as to how and when the current restrictions are eased, and you must remember that we are not going to stop the virus spreading to about 80% of the population. All we are doing is slowing it down so the NHS can cope.
This is not a time for party politics. We all have to pull together on this until the crisis is over. Obviously, any failings need to be put right straight away, but the time to scrape over the things that went wrong are for later. In the meantime, the vast majority of people are pleased with the way the government has dealt with this.
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14-04-2020, 17:26
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#2141
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Oh When The Saints!!
Join Date: Jun 2003
Location: Kernow
Posts: 3,927
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Re: Coronavirus
Quote:
Originally Posted by denphone
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I think you'll find your google search has only identified the stiuff you buy retail Den, not what traders are buying for sale through pubs etc. in casks etc.
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Confusion Will Be My Epitaph.
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14-04-2020, 17:34
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#2142
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Still alive and fighting
Join Date: Jun 2007
Location: In the land of beyond and beyond.
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Posts: 56,330
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Re: Coronavirus
Quote:
Originally Posted by Julian
I think you'll find your google search has only identified the stiuff you buy retail Den, not what traders are buying for sale through pubs etc. in casks etc.
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Its quite hard to answer that question though as there are quite a few processes before it ends up in pubs , etc , etc so one could only hazard a guess to its shelf life once it gets there.
Not being a expert on it but some drinks would definitely have a much shorter use by date then others going by my own experiences working in a pub many years ago.
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“The only lesson you can learn from history is that it repeats itself”
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14-04-2020, 17:39
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#2143
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laeva recumbens anguis
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Re: Coronavirus
Quote:
Originally Posted by ianch99
Not sure what this truism implies? Do not challenge why clearly wrong decisions were made?
If you are unable to determine why the wrong decision was made, who made it and what their reasoning was, you clearly run the risk of similarly bad decisions continuing to be made.
You can pillory people if you wish, I am more interesting in who made the decisions, when they made them and why they made them. In understanding this, you can learn from the process in time to save lives in the near future.
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No, it doesn’t mean that.
It’s aimed at people who insist on attributing blame/fault before enough information is available, and those who ask why, in hindsight, why something wasn’t done that is only obvious after the fact.
I was always taught that ‘drains up" reviews must be de-personalised and not pre-judged, and ask "what went wrong", not "who did that wrong thing" - learn from mistakes, and if people did make wrong decisions, understand the reasoning behind those decisions, because as jonbxx said above, it’s rare that people actively do things wrong, it’s often unforeseen or changing circumstances.
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If only we’re brave enough to see it.
If only we’re brave enough to be it.
If my post is in bold and this colour, it's a Moderator Request.
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14-04-2020, 17:43
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#2144
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Architect of Ideas
Join Date: Dec 2004
Posts: 10,439
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Re: Coronavirus
Quote:
Originally Posted by ianch99
Not sure what this truism implies? Do not challenge why clearly wrong decisions were made?
If you are unable to determine why the wrong decision was made, who made it and what their reasoning was, you clearly run the risk of similarly bad decisions continuing to be made.
You can pillory people if you wish, I am more interesting in who made the decisions, when they made them and why they made them. In understanding this, you can learn from the process in time to save lives in the near future.
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I’m equally interested in what factors came into consideration, from who and when.
In the last two pages Old Boy has cited the Chancellor being keen to get the economy going next month. I’m sure he is, however if we are using the best scientific advice in a medical emergency then the economy shouldn’t factor into the decision making very strongly, if at all.
Unless of course we accept that as a reasonable balancing act in which case I think the Government should just front up that it finds X deaths as an acceptable figure if we can shorten the inevitable recession by Y months.
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14-04-2020, 17:51
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#2145
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Rise above the players
Join Date: Mar 2008
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Re: Coronavirus
Quote:
Originally Posted by jfman
I’m equally interested in what factors came into consideration, from who and when.
In the last two pages Old Boy has cited the Chancellor being keen to get the economy going next month. I’m sure he is, however if we are using the best scientific advice in a medical emergency then the economy shouldn’t factor into the decision making very strongly, if at all.
Unless of course we accept that as a reasonable balancing act in which case I think the Government should just front up that it finds X deaths as an acceptable figure if we can shorten the inevitable recession by Y months.
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We will not avoid deaths by the measures being taken. We can only delay them.
If you think the economy isn't important in determining when the restrictions are relaxed, I don't think the majority would agree with you.
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