[Update] The UK votes to leave the EU

[Osem]

Two European leaders have told the BBC that the UK is yet to reveal any details about what it wants to achieve in a renegotiation with the EU.

Estonia and Finland's leaders say David Cameron has so far failed to provide concrete proposals.

But Mr Cameron, who is in Iceland for a meeting of northern European leaders, said discussions were "going well".

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-34664382

[Gary L]

Originally Posted by Osem

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-34664382

Is Dave actually in the right Iceland? and he's not just talking to the staff with his hands like he does ripping off Tony Blair who used to do it. and Dave started copying him because he thinks it makes him look sophisticated and clever?

[heero_yuy]

He'll sort of get what he's asking for because he's not asking for nearly enough. I don't care what he'll say he's achieved, it'll all be baloney. I know which way I'm voting.

Even more so because of the Europhiles scaremongering about Brexit without any cogent arguments for staying in the EU.

EU Myths and facts

Originally Posted by heero_yuy

Even more so because of the Europhiles scaremongering about Brexit without any cogent arguments for staying in the EU.

EU Myths and facts

Well a lot of that is also rather dubious. The amount of things they're passing off as certainties. I think this is the problem others have mentioned, it's hard to get a clear impression on what would happen or what we stand to gain or lose from leaving the EU.

The Economist had some clear arguments for the EU: http://www.economist.com/news/leader...173f4f0f060a07 although that isn't unbiased either.

[Osem]

The problem for me is the major downsides appear far more serious than the upsides. Please someone tell me the last time the EU covered itself with glory over anything resembling a major issue/emergency? The fact is it's too big, too complex and their are far too many conflicting interests for it to ever work and that's aside from the ridiculous single currency straightjacket.

Latest Yougov puts Leave/Remain on 40pc each.

http://order-order.com/2015/10/29/yo...n-40-leave-40/

[Sirius]

Originally Posted by Chris

Latest Yougov puts Leave/Remain on 40pc each.

http://order-order.com/2015/10/29/yo...n-40-leave-40/

My voting intentions will not be changing between now and the vote. Get us out i say and then keep us out.

Just give us the vote and none of the tedious double talk preamble that were in for by the container ship load my mind is already made up and as much as I would love clear unbiased information for those on the fence it just isn't going to happen. The pro's will lie through their teeth for their agenda and the same for the anti's it going to be a game of who can bs the best and look convincing. While I believe there will be a referendum I'm not sure I believe it will be straight up and clean this is going to get nasty.

[Matth]

http://www.bloggers4ukip.org.uk/2015...heir-logo.html
Saw this in other papers.

Now we have to thank the EU for giving us some of our own money back.

I have zero faith in Cameron's ability to get any concessions worth the paper they are printed on, never mind enough to turn me in favour of staying.

The EU is broken, lurching from crisis to crisis, and while they claim that freedom of movement is a key commitment, under the pressure of a flood of immigration, maybe they will falter on that, and if we want that concession, we must be ready to pounce.
The EURO is also under pressure, I believe Greece should have been ejected.

Country after country is slipping towards euro scepticism, while the Brussels bureaucrats never listen to those who disagree.

If we do leave, then we should perhaps prepare to lead an "EU-lite" group of co-operating sovereign states - keep the few good ideas of the EU and discard the rest.

[Osem]

I agree. The EU has become a 'marriage' of numerous unhappy, patently unequal partners and we're now seeing it all start to unravel. The only question is whether the inevitable 'divorce' can be handled amicably or whether, like most, it's going to get very acrimonious. I see some merit in trying to form an alternative looser arrangement of likeminded nations but have my doubts as to whether that will prove possible given what I feel is an inevitable downward spiral into turmoil and maybe worse.

[solitaire]

Originally Posted by Sirius

My voting intentions will not be changing between now and the vote. Get us out i say and then keep us out.

Exactly my intentions as well.

[Ramrod]

Slight conflict of interest?:

Mr. Froman, who told Reuters last week: “I think it’s absolutely clear that Britain has a greater voice at the trade table being part of the EU, being part of a larger economic entity… We’re not particularly in the market for [free trade agreements] with individual countries. We’re building platforms … that other countries can join over time.”

“We have no [free trade agreement] with the UK so they would be subject to the same tariffs – and other trade-related measures – as China, or Brazil or India,” Mr. Froman concluded........
Now it has emerged that Mr. Froman indeed has been in the pay of the European Commission, which recently announced a propaganda taskforce to keep Britain in the EU.

Mr. Farage told Breitbart News Daily radio live on Sirius XM this morning: “Froman basically said that if Britain was to leave the European Union there would be no bilateral trade deal between the United States and the Untied Kingdom. It’s ludicrous.

“It is political interference by the Obama regime in the British referendum… prior to being Obama’s trade envoy, he worked for the European Commission. He worked in Brussels for the Commission’s Forward Studies Unit.

[heero_yuy]

Just another lie in the avalanche of lies that will be peddled over the next few months. Let's hope they can be debunked in short order.

[Osem]

The US will say/do nothing which isn't in it's own interests so as a default I'd be inclined to do the opposite of what they suggest.

Given what's going on in the EU, I think that arguments such as these are becoming increasingly irrelevant. I can't think of anyone I talk to who has't had enough of the lies and incompetence they perceive emanates from Brussels and that includes people who used to be pro EU. People like this guy are relying on the 'fear of the unknown' factor to overcome anti-EU sentiment.

It doubt America wouldn't sign a trade agreement with us but we would be in a weakened position to negotiate for a favorable deal. People will use the fear of the unknown to promote the In argument but those doing the SNP-style 'everything will be great' argument about the merits of leaving are being equally disingenuous.

For example what's stopping us ending up in a situation where we're still bound by EU product regulations (because we have to trade with that bloc) but now have no say at all in that policy? Or a Norway situation where we pay for access to the club still?

The Outers will happily dismiss all those as scaremongering too.