The Pope Thread [UK visit 2010 - merged]

[Gary L]

Originally Posted by papa smurf

well they obviously see no wrong in what there doing ,its been going on for long enough ,and just treat as a sin and sins can be forgiven and forgiven and forgiven.

I think it's probably the case of being forgiven for all your sins at the door, as long as you recognise God when he opens it.

---------- Post added at 14:12 ---------- Previous post was at 14:01 ----------

I don't know what they're talking about, or what brought it up, but they're talking on the BBC news about not having a white person for the next pope???

Originally Posted by Gary L

I don't know what they're talking about,

You don't know because you don't look.

Francis Arinze.

or what brought it up

Probably because Joe Ratzinger, the current Man in the White Suit, is 83 years old. There has been speculation about his successor since the day he got the job.

but they're talking on the BBC news about not having a white person for the next pope???

Unless he happens to have been born in the Vatican, Gary, the Pope is always an immigrant.

[Gary L]

Originally Posted by Chris

Unless he happens to have been born in the Vatican, Gary, the Pope is always an immigrant.

She did say it would be good to have a black pope for the usual reasons. I'm all for having a black anything. but it's got to be for the right reasons. not because the reason is he or she is black.

the person she was speaking too though said it would probably be another white.

[Hom3r]

I will 100% guarantee that the next pope will not be a black woman

[papa smurf]

women don't seem to have much in the way of equality in religion i wonder why that is - one thing you can be certain of is it will be someone old .

[Gary L]

Originally Posted by papa smurf

women don't seem to have much in the way of equality in religion i wonder why that is - one thing you can be certain of is it will be someone old .

I think the thing about the pope is to have a fragile looking one. best they get another old one. people may not take to a young spring chicken that can walk everywhere unaided.

I have to be honest i have never understood the whole man only thing some religions seem to have going on the catholic church being high on the list of sexist religions. As far as i am concerned a woman or for that fact a gay or lesbian with faith is every bit as qualified to spread the word of god and the teachings of all religions there is no practical reason why they cannot and therefore the only reason i can see is deep seated bigotry and ignorance hiding behind constructed religious belief or ideology. I may be an atheist not sure i qualify as an extreme one or not but i view all people on their individual merits as an individual and accept or reject them as such. Seems to little ignorant old me that if more religions had that approach we would live in a far happier and more progressive world then the one were stuck with at the minute.

Originally Posted by RizzyKing

I have to be honest i have never understood the whole man only thing some religions seem to have going on the catholic church being high on the list of sexist religions. As far as i am concerned a woman or for that fact a gay or lesbian with faith is every bit as qualified to spread the word of god and the teachings of all religions there is no practical reason why they cannot and therefore the only reason i can see is deep seated bigotry and ignorance hiding behind constructed religious belief or ideology. I may be an atheist not sure i qualify as an extreme one or not but i view all people on their individual merits as an individual and accept or reject them as such. Seems to little ignorant old me that if more religions had that approach we would live in a far happier and more progressive world then the one were stuck with at the minute.

well that's the big question regarding religion Rizzy,why can't religion get upto date ,not just christianity but all religions .They all seem to be stuck in a 2000yr old time loop or something. Most religions just have not progressed with the rest of society

Well, therein lies the problem Marty ... religions, in one way or another, claim to say something about God (or gods), what he/she/they are like, and what we should do about it.

If the idea of a religion is to focus people on God, in what way should the religion 'change'? After all, in your view it's society that has changed, not God.

[squealy]

Apparently he blessed our training ground at Wast Hills when his helicopter used our helipad for this visit to Brum. So he gets a thumbs up from me.

[papa smurf]

Originally Posted by martyh

well that's the big question regarding religion Rizzy,why can't religion get upto date ,not just christianity but all religions .They all seem to be stuck in a 2000yr old time loop or something. Most religions just have not progressed with the rest of society

well you have the Vatican a mini state that exists to keep the status quo .

Originally Posted by Chris

Well, therein lies the problem Marty ... religions, in one way or another, claim to say something about God (or gods), what he/she/they are like, and what we should do about it.

If the idea of a religion is to focus people on God, in what way should the religion 'change'? After all, in your view it's society that has changed, not God.

That question opens up more questions imo Chris .
Is modern religion (in your opinion) there to tell us how to do the will of god/s as laid down in a holy book ,or to guide us in how we should live our lives morally? .
If the latter then it is up to religion to change with society ,meeting changes in equality between the sexes for example,you must agree that inequality between sexes/people is wrong ,does that mean that god is wrong ?.
If religion is purely to guide us in worship of a particular deity as laid down with no compromise to his laws then in theory society should be as it was 2000 years ago because religion and society have always gone hand in hand so if religion doesn't change then nor should society,but society has changed and i suppose to some extent so has religion but not to the same degree ,religions seem to struggle when it comes to meeting modern societies demands.Is that because religion see's progress as against the will of god and therefore wrong or is it just a plain and simple power thing enforced by the male rulers of religions

[wwe]

there we have it the pope gone back home.

Originally Posted by martyh

That question opens up more questions imo Chris .
Is modern religion (in your opinion) there to tell us how to do the will of god/s as laid down in a holy book ,or to guide us in how we should live our lives morally? .
If the latter then it is up to religion to change with society ,meeting changes in equality between the sexes for example,you must agree that inequality between sexes/people is wrong ,does that mean that god is wrong ?.
If religion is purely to guide us in worship of a particular deity as laid down with no compromise to his laws then in theory society should be as it was 2000 years ago because religion and society have always gone hand in hand so if religion doesn't change then nor should society,but society has changed and i suppose to some extent so has religion but not to the same degree ,religions seem to struggle when it comes to meeting modern societies demands.Is that because religion see's progress as against the will of god and therefore wrong or is it just a plain and simple power thing enforced by the male rulers of religions

I'm all for further questions Marty. You know I love a good chin-wag.

First though, I can't give a single answer about what 'modern religion' tries to do - there are lots of religions and I can only really speak for the one I adhere to, Christianity.

Christianity says that:

1. God is a perfect moral Being.
2. Humans have offended him by living less than perfect lives.
3. It is impossible for any human to live up to God's perfect moral standard.
4. Humans would all therefore be destined to spend the afterlife excluded from God's presence ...
5. ... were it not for the fact that God, in the form of Jesus Christ, endured punishment on behalf of all humans.
6. Therefore any human who accepts all of this, and resolves to live the life God requires, by the strength that God gives him, will not be excluded from God's presence in the hereafter.

So there are aspects of both - it is about doing what God requires, and living a moral life. But Christianity derives its definition of 'morality' from God, not from society. 'Moral' is what God says it is, not what modern society says it is. This is why Christianity can't change its morals.

It is not the case that in order to live a moral life, as defined by the Christian God, we would have to live as people lived 2,000 years ago. There is nothing inherently immoral about cars, computers or central heating, for example.

Human conduct hasn't changed in 2,000 years though. The reason the Bible writer called Paul argued against homosexual practice, for example, was because there was plenty of it around at the time, especially in Greece and Rome (Paul wrote about it in a letter addressed to Christians living in Rome who wanted to know whether it was acceptable - he was unequivocal in stating that in the eyes of the Christian God, it is not).

As far as exclusively male leadership is concerned; Paul also wrote plenty about authority and roles for men and women. He taught that men and women are absolutely equal before God, but that God created men and women different, in the way they relate to each other, in order to help teach people about the relationship between God and people. This isn't nearly complete enough as an answer but I'm aware that this post is getting quite long. So I'm going to stop here ... ask further questions if you want to.

[Gary L]

Originally Posted by Chris

ask further questions if you want to.

I've got a question. well two questions.

is there a chance that Paul could have written anything he wanted pretending that it's actually Gods view and not his own views or opinions?

stupid question this one. is it just Paul that God dictated to? nobody else could hear God if you like?