09-06-2020, 16:36
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#196
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Virgin Media Staff
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Re: Black Lives Matter
Quote:
Originally Posted by Carth
anyway, history is history, if you start taking the bits out that you don't like, it becomes a fairy tale
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It's not about taking bits out, it's about adding facts of history that weren't in 'recorded' history before.
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Last edited by BenMcr; 09-06-2020 at 16:39.
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09-06-2020, 16:42
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#197
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Sulking in the Corner
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Re: Black Lives Matter
Quote:
Originally Posted by Hugh
They don't want to eradicate our history, they would just like a less whitewashed version of it...
Our culture has always been about adapting and including - cultures grow, because if they get static, they decay; you know, cultural institutions like tea (from India), curries (mostly from Bangladesh), Punch and Judy (Italian), the Women's Institute (Canada), the C of E (breakaway from the RC church), our Royalty (Sax-Coburg-Gotha), the English Language (Latin and Germanic roots), etc., etc.
Every culture is an amalgam of the cultures around it combined with their own particular cultural experience and history
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Yours seems to be an altruistic view of what's just happened in Bristol and London.
The Colston statue dumped into the estuary smacks of an eradication to me.
Branding Churchill as a racist smacks of rewriting hiustory, to me.
You list a range of cultural importations. Let me list some more:
Gangs (Albanian); knife crime (Somalia); begging (Romania).
---------- Post added at 16:42 ---------- Previous post was at 16:41 ----------
Quote:
Originally Posted by BenMcr
It's not about taking bits out, it's about adding facts of history that weren't in 'recorded' history before.
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What? What's being added that wasn't there before?
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09-06-2020, 16:48
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#198
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Virgin Media Staff
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Re: Black Lives Matter
Quote:
Originally Posted by Sephiroth
What? What's being added that wasn't there before?
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Well here's an example
https://www.theguardian.com/world/20...ufmann-history
Quote:
Africans were already known to have likely been living in Roman Britain as soldiers, slaves or even free men and women. But Kaufmann shows that, by Tudor times, they were present at the royal courts of Henry VII, Henry VIII, Elizabeth I and James I, and in the households of Sir Walter Raleigh and William Cecil
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It doesn't take away anything that we already know about the Tudor period, but adds to our understanding. But it would have likely been excluded in later history records as didn't align to the views expressed within society at the time.
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Last edited by BenMcr; 09-06-2020 at 16:51.
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09-06-2020, 17:00
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#199
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vox populi vox dei
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Re: Black Lives Matter
It seems some idiot has decided we need a BLM protest in cleethorpes this weekend, should be interesting.
https://www.grimsbytelegraph.co.uk/n...t-held-4201906
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Last edited by papa smurf; 09-06-2020 at 17:21.
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09-06-2020, 17:22
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#200
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Sulking in the Corner
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Re: Black Lives Matter
Quote:
Originally Posted by BenMcr
Well here's an example
https://www.theguardian.com/world/20...ufmann-history
It doesn't take away anything that we already know about the Tudor period, but adds to our understanding. But it would have likely been excluded in later history records as didn't align to the views expressed within society at the time.
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Oh please, Ben. On that basis people might argue that we're really Italian, or Danish, or Celtic or whatever.
By all means add that stuff into History syllabuses but do please recognise that these demonstrators nor any ethnic group should be allowed to eradicate already written factual history.
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Seph.
My advice is at your risk.
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09-06-2020, 17:27
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#201
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cf.mega poster
Join Date: Jul 2004
Location: At the Leaving door
Posts: 4,050
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Re: Black Lives Matter
Quote:
Originally Posted by papa smurf
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Not much left to wreck there, maybe it will end up being a peaceful 'fish n chips' protest
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09-06-2020, 17:30
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#202
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cf.mega poster
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Re: Black Lives Matter
Maggy, a few months ago I had a discussion with someone saying they want to drop World War I from the syllabus. Do you know anything about this?
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09-06-2020, 17:36
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#203
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cf.mega poster
Join Date: Dec 2013
Posts: 14,289
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Re: Black Lives Matter
Quote:
Originally Posted by Sephiroth
Branding Churchill as a racist smacks of rewriting history, to me.
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I think it's pretty clear that Churchill held some views which we would now term racist. Rewriting history would be to airbrush this aspect of him out. A better approach would be to acknowledge and contexualise his views.
https://inews.co.uk/news/winston-chu...plained-440668
Last edited by 1andrew1; 09-06-2020 at 17:40.
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09-06-2020, 17:49
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#204
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vox populi vox dei
Join Date: Mar 2007
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Re: Black Lives Matter
Quote:
Originally Posted by Carth
Not much left to wreck there, maybe it will end up being a peaceful 'fish n chips' protest
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Well there's been no boozers open, no football matches for months so i predict a huge punch up and very busy police cells on Saturday night,it'll be like life as returned to normal again.
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To be or not to be, woke is the question Whether 'tis nobler in the mind to suffer. The slings and arrows of outrageous wokedome, Or to take arms against a sea of wokies. And by opposing end them.
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09-06-2020, 18:29
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#205
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laeva recumbens anguis
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Re: Black Lives Matter
Quote:
Originally Posted by downquark1
Can you offer specifics?
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How about the de-industrialisation of India in the 1700s & 1800s, the export of food need to feed starving Indians during the famine of the 1870s, the deaths of nearly 30,000 (mainly) women and children in the concentration camps during the Boer War (out of around 100,000 captives), the minimisation of the fact that over 2 million soldiers from India, Africa, and the Caribbean fought for the British during the First World War, and the (until recently) erasure from the history books of Mary Seacole.
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09-06-2020, 18:39
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#206
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Remoaner
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Join Date: Mar 2004
Posts: 32,271
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Re: Black Lives Matter
Quote:
Originally Posted by downquark1
Maggy, a few months ago I had a discussion with someone saying they want to drop World War I from the syllabus. Do you know anything about this?
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When I was at school WW1 took a backseat to WW2. I wouldn't be surprised if that trend was continued as time moves further on.
---------- Post added at 18:39 ---------- Previous post was at 18:34 ----------
Quote:
Originally Posted by Sephiroth
[
Branding Churchill as a racist smacks of rewriting hiustory, to me.
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Why? It's not rewriting history so much as adding more depth to it. Churchill is celebrated for leading the country in WW2, complete with the tenacity in doing so, his ability to motivate the nation during the darkest parts of the Battle of Britain and in recognizing the threat Hitler posed. None of that precludes the idea he expressed racist views, it's just that his achievements are far more significant that to dismiss him as a racist would be stupid and simplistic.
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09-06-2020, 18:39
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#207
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cf.mega poster
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Re: Black Lives Matter
Quote:
Originally Posted by Hugh
How about the de-industrialisation of India in the 1700s & 1800s, the export of food need to feed starving Indians during the famine of the 1870s, the deaths of nearly 30,000 (mainly) women and children in the concentration camps during the Boer War (out of around 100,000 captives), the minimisation of the fact that over 2 million soldiers from India, Africa, and the Caribbean fought for the British during the First World War, and the (until recently) erasure from the history books of Mary Seacole.
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Sure if you also cover Adam Smith, the Enlightenment and the French Revolution.
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09-06-2020, 18:45
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#208
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Remoaner
Cable Forum Team
Join Date: Mar 2004
Posts: 32,271
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Re: Black Lives Matter
Quote:
Originally Posted by downquark1
Sure if you also cover Adam Smith, the Enlightenment and the French Revolution.
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The point is typically those do get more coverage than the negative aspects of our history.
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09-06-2020, 18:49
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#209
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Virgin Media Staff
Join Date: Nov 2006
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Re: Black Lives Matter
Quote:
Originally Posted by Sephiroth
Oh please, Ben. On that basis people might argue that we're really Italian, or Danish, or Celtic or whatever.
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And what would be so wrong in realising that most of the people in the UK today have connections with somewhere else in the world at some point in the their family tree?
Quote:
By all means add that stuff into History syllabuses but do please recognise that these demonstrators nor any ethnic group should be allowed to eradicate already written factual history.
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And who exactly is say that? Pretty sure that no-one in BLM is suggesting not talking about existing history, but to ensure what we do learn is re-contextualised within the wider world view that a lot of recent history teaching doesn't cover or allow for.
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Last edited by BenMcr; 09-06-2020 at 18:53.
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09-06-2020, 18:51
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#210
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cf.mega poster
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Re: Black Lives Matter
Quote:
Originally Posted by Damien
The point is typically those do get more coverage than the negative aspects of our history.
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Except that is a lie. When I was in school there was nothing about those periods at all. In the last ten years people are falling over themselves to lecture me about Mary Seacole.
When I want to learn about the British Raj I pretty much have to find a Hindu nationalist to yell facts at me.
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