Post-Brexit Thread

Rhetoric on both sides is unhelpful at the minute and the EU is as much at fault as the government both sides are talking things up and declaring positions prior to negotiations lets just hope this doesn't hamstring negotiations.

[Ramrod]

Originally Posted by Hugh

Facts are impartial, interpretation isn't...

Like the 'fact' that we would all be £3500/year worse off after brexit or that we will give £350 million/year to the NHS? Or that WW3 will happen because of brexit?

Originally Posted by Ramrod

Like the 'fact' that we would all be £3500/year worse off after brexit or that we will give £350 million/year to the NHS? Or that WW3 will happen because of brexit?

Those two 'facts' were campaign pledges and were disparaged by the experts. Both of them were intentionally misleading people on the actual facts underneath.

£4,300 a year:

At best that’s a red herring. Most economists seem to agree that leaving the EU would cost the UK economically but this amount is an unhelpful summary of the underlying research.

£350 a million a week:

The claim that the UK sends £350 million per week to the EU is wrong.

The last one wasn't actually said. Cameron said that we've usually been drawn into Europe and we would eventually be so again

Of course both Remain and Leave cited 'experts' for their claims which is why independent and objective experts are more valuable.

[Pierre]

Originally Posted by Hugh

I'm glad I don't live in your world....

That being the real word.

Sharing, community etc etc, is fine if it meets your needs, but boil it down and you will do whatever it takes to look after your own family first, or you're a liar...or stupid....if you say otherwise.


But we digress.

Now tusk is saying the only alternative to hard brexit is no brexit yep there's the caring, sharing and listening EU always willing to learn from it's past mistakes, it's this sort of stupidity that created the resentment of the EU that led to a leave vote

[Ignitionnet]

I think I've already posted multiple times that they can't give us any significant bespoke concessions as it'd lead to the EU falling apart. This position should be absolutely no surprise to anyone. If they bend the rules for us when we're leaving others will join us.

Were we staying in then we would have a right to complain if they aren't listening to us, but right now we have no right to expect them to make any kind of concessions to us.

On the positive side we at least can speculate now on the form the negotiations will take. David Davis and the rest talking to a brick wall with the EU's four freedoms on it.

Either way it's pretty arrogant to claim the EU-27 should care about us, share with us or listen to us now, especially given the behaviour of some of our politicians. We're leaving the EU for our own self-interest, the EU has to behave in its own self-interest, which as a whole is exactly the approach Tusk is advocating.

Tusk is the one who after the referendum was saying that the EU did need to reform and that the result was a wake up call I might add. He's also Polish, so probably hasn't found the post-referendum spike of xenophobia focused heavily on Polish migrants here too amusing.

All that said it was made quite clear that we were welcome to stay if we changed our mind. I strongly suspect the EU will enact some reforms over the next couple of years, as contrary to your thoughts they have been listening even if absurdly slow moving about it, in the hope that those concessions, demographic changes, and the impacts of Brexit as they start to bite within the UK will change our minds along with keeping the more restive members of the group happy.

[ianch99]

Originally Posted by martyh

Completely agree ,i for one want someone totally biased towards Brexit ,i do not want some wishy washy expert sitting on the fence 'cos he's impartial ,i want experts advising who will commit to a decision and stick to it because they believe it to be right .Impartiality will not do us any good in this situation.

dissent adds to the impression of uncertainty in a situation like this. It's the same during times of national crisis - sometimes party politics has to be put to one side for the greater good and I can't see how continuing in this ridiculous manner is serving anyone any good.

and the Nobel Prize in Hypocrisy goes to ...

People have been going on for years on how the EU is not democratic and here you have some who thinks that people who do not agree with the Government should be silenced.

[1andrew1]

The Walloonian Parliament in Belgium has blocked the proposed trade deal between the EU and Canada.
Brexiters might argue that this shows how the UK can act more swiftly with deals as an independent entity. The bigger question is how well does it bode for a deal between the UK and EU?
https://www.ft.com/content/df6841f4-...9-61bcc6c3ed11

[Ignitionnet]

Originally Posted by 1andrew1

The Walloonian Parliament in Belgium has blocked the proposed trade deal between the EU and Canada.
Brexiters might argue that this shows how the UK can act more swiftly with deals as an independent entity. The bigger question is how well does it bode for a deal between the UK and EU?
https://www.ft.com/content/df6841f4-...9-61bcc6c3ed11

Going by the rhetoric we aren't getting one, either permanent or transitional, for the foreseeable. Financial services and manufacturers need to start putting their contingency plans into effect and indeed some already have.

Also I note the UK is apparently planning to direct foreign aid towards winning support in WTO schedule talks. So what David Davis and others have said about a seamless transition with no legal ambiguity looks like a lie.

I am shocked. David Davis has been so honest, on the rare occasion he's actually said anything substantial, since he took up his new post.

[techguyone]

I don't know why you should be shocked - if we must spend circa £12B/yr at all, let's do it this way, rather than to give aid to Countries so poor they have their own space program etc.

Maybe this way we'll have something to show for it. We could call it 'foreign interest Investment' or similar.

[Ignitionnet]

I'm not shocked that we're trying to bribe smooth passage back into full WTO membership and scheduling, bribery is one of our main policy tools, I'm shocked we are having to at all. Those experts at Lawyers for Britain along with David Davis and others said there'd be no issues, a smooth transition. Now it turns out we have to bribe the third world.

[TheDaddy]

Originally Posted by techguyone

I don't know why you should be shocked - if we must spend circa £12B/yr at all, let's do it this way, rather than to give aid to Countries so poor they have their own space program etc.

Maybe this way we'll have something to show for it. We could call it 'foreign interest Investment' or similar.

Interesting fact about the Indian space programme, in its 40 years of existence it's spent in total less than what nasa does in a year. Up until very recently it was solely used to put communication satellites up. It'd also be worth remembering the kerfuffle we kicked up when they had the temerity to buy their fighter planes of someone else, they asked us then was the aid money a bribe and that they didn't need it. imo they should've gone further and said we couldn't give a toss about your war on terror, helping you gather intelligence or setting up madrasas that don't spread an extremist message which iirc is what most of not all the aid money is assigned to.

[TheDaddy]

No one likes banks anyway. Who cares if every single one of them up sticks and go, it's what we voted for

https://www.google.co.uk/amp/www.ind...android-h3g-gb

[1andrew1]

Originally Posted by Ignitionnet

I'm not shocked that we're trying to bribe smooth passage back into full WTO membership and scheduling, bribery is one of our main policy tools, I'm shocked we are having to at all. Those experts at Lawyers for Britain along with David Davis and others said there'd be no issues, a smooth transition. Now it turns out we have to bribe the third world.

Looks like we're bribing Nissan unless the whole of the UK has no EU tariffs and retains freedom of movement.

"Group chief Carlos Ghosn told Sunderland plant will have same trade conditions after EU exit" "Nissan’s concerns around trading barriers extend not only to the export of its cars from the site but access to a European supply chain as well as international talent."
https://www.ft.com/content/68c12fbe-...8-d3778b55a923

[nomadking]

Originally Posted by Damien

Those two 'facts' were campaign pledges and were disparaged by the experts. Both of them were intentionally misleading people on the actual facts underneath.

£4,300 a year:



£350 a million a week:

The claim that the UK sends £350 million per week to the EU is wrong.



Of course both Remain and Leave cited 'experts' for their claims which is why independent and objective experts are more valuable.

The £350m was wrong. It is £376million.

The figures, from the UK's current account published by the Office for National Statistics, say that, before the application of the rebate, the UK's gross contribution was £19.6bn a year - about £376m a week.