Football : Season 2012/2013

[adzii_nufc]

Originally Posted by TheDaddy

Amazing scouting? Who did you sign that was an unknown before they came apart from krul?

Tiote, Cabaye, Krul and Cisse were all household names before they arrived in England?

All signed for Fee's under £10 million and all if sold will go for a huge profit.

[TheDaddy]

Originally Posted by adzii_nufc

Tiote, Cabaye, Krul and Cisse were all household names before they arrived in England?

All signed for Fee's under £10 million and all if sold will go for a huge profit.

Err for any fan with any real knowledge they were apart from krul which I acknowledged, tiote was the only one I'd never seen play but considering he was part of a Dutch championship winning team its hardly amazing scouting for clubs to have noticed him, cabaye was captain of a French league winning team and cisse was the German leagues top scorer playing for a crap club, you say its amazing scouting I say its the bare minimum clubs should be doing.

[adzii_nufc]

Originally Posted by TheDaddy

Err for any fan with any real knowledge they were apart from krul which I acknowledged, tiote was the only one I'd never seen play but considering he was part of a Dutch championship winning team its hardly amazing scouting for clubs to have noticed him, cabaye was captain of a French league winning team and cisse was the German leagues top scorer playing for a crap club, you say its amazing scouting I say its the bare minimum clubs should be doing.

Yeah signing players that have won mickey mouse league's and quadrupling their value is the bare minimum.

[TheDaddy]

Originally Posted by adzii_nufc

Yeah signing players that have won mickey mouse league's and quadrupling their value is the bare minimum.

Not forgetting they were all internationals to, imo if there's a team that should be getting plaudits for scouting then its West brom, they've taken players from real backwaters for Pennies not pounds and not nipped across the channel and spent millions.

[adzii_nufc]

You say that and then go on to say ''cisse was the German leagues top scorer playing for a crap club''

Was Mario Gomez injured that season?

''Err for any fan with any real knowledge''

It's kind of a myth that much of an advantage can be gained from scouting. Occasionally you can unearth a gem or, more likely, take advantage of a misjudgement from a team. However the advantage Arsenal enjoyed with Wenger's knowledge of the French leagues has disappeared. All the major clubs have large and sophisticated scouting networks and usually quality has to come with a premium price. It's all very well to demand cheaper, quality, signings but there is a risk involved when you do that as they may not be consistant. So for every Koscielny you have a Squillaci. This is the risk when shopping for unknowns...

[adzii_nufc]

Originally Posted by Damien

It's kind of a myth that much of an advantage can be gained from scouting. Occasionally you can unearth a gem or, more likely, take advantage of a misjudgement from a team. However the advantage Arsenal enjoyed with Wenger's knowledge of the French leagues has disappeared. All the major clubs have large and sophisticated scouting networks and usually quality has to come with a premium price. It's all very well to demand cheaper, quality, signings but there is a risk involved when you do that as they may not be consistant. So for every Koscielny you have a Squillaci. This is the risk when shopping for unknowns...

Agreed, I think Arsenal have a gem in Cazorla and he'll probably take signing of the season and at a good price. Hopefully he'll be staying around for a bit and even if Barca come crawling they'll be looking at a hefty sum.

Originally Posted by Russ

No idea but someone with Pep's background is likely to want to step higher than Arsenal. The only team at that level which is guaranteed to have a vacancy in the not-to-distance future would be United.

Actually I would say it's Manchester City or Chelsea. Neither have a reluctance to fire their managers afterall. I don't think Pep would want to succede Sir Alex, you would have to be insane. First of all of the pressure would be immense, the comparisons endless, and at some point that debt will have to be paid back. Meanwhile City and Chelsea would still be flushed with cash.

[TheDaddy]

Originally Posted by adzii_nufc

You say that and then go on to say ''cisse was the German leagues top scorer playing for a crap club''

Was Mario Gomez injured that season?

Yeah your right, my mistake, cisse won the award for most efficient striker that year, even more of an accolade in some ways perhaps.

---------- Post added at 23:38 ---------- Previous post was at 23:36 ----------

Originally Posted by Damien

It's kind of a myth that much of an advantage can be gained from scouting. Occasionally you can unearth a gem or, more likely, take advantage of a misjudgement from a team. However the advantage Arsenal enjoyed with Wenger's knowledge of the French leagues has disappeared. All the major clubs have large and sophisticated scouting networks and usually quality has to come with a premium price. It's all very well to demand cheaper, quality, signings but there is a risk involved when you do that as they may not be consistant. So for every Koscielny you have a Squillaci. This is the risk when shopping for unknowns...

all the major clubs.except Liverpool, the more i.hear about scouting the less I like it, seems like agents.are the driving force on a lot of clubs transfer policy.

---------- Post added at 23:40 ---------- Previous post was at 23:38 ----------

Originally Posted by Damien

Actually I would say it's Manchester City or Chelsea. Neither have a reluctance to fire their managers afterall. I don't think Pep would want to succede Sir Alex, you would have to be insane. First of all of the pressure would be immense, the comparisons endless, and at some point that debt will have to be paid back. Meanwhile City and Chelsea would still be flushed with cash.

And have the constant threat of the sack looming, I could see him at arsenal

Originally Posted by thenry

he has indeed managed near enough all his life but that doesnt mean hes earned a right to manage Arsenal for the rest of his life. the decline is worrying.

The decline seems to have been timed exactly when Chelsea came into Russian money. We seem to be a level below City and Chelsea smart buying isn't going to let us overtake them.

he doesnt outperform at a level we could be. thats worrying. standing still moving sideways when we could be moving forward is worrying. bang for your buck. yup there you go. thats true self subtainzzzzz peaking.

It's not as easy as bang for your buck. Players tend to be priced what they are worth and often a premium on top of that. There isn't a legion of great title-winning players waiting for a knock-off price. They are are rare and difficult to find. Otherwise everybody would be buying them.

Arsene is indeed well respected. i want him to turn it around but make no mistake it isnt just keyboard warriors. people in the stadium are annoyed with the lot but continue to support what we love that is the club.

People in the stadium still sing 'one Arsene Wenger'. Some are annoyed at the board and understand the limitations Wenger is working under. I do not speak for all of them. However we don't see much chanted against the man or protests against him.

Pep fine tunes for a start and would not accept half arsed ways. he'd get players performing. as for investment agreed he did get a huge boost but look at it this way. Barca and Real compete on that level for pride. Arsenal is different. Our values are completely different. as for funds theres 70mil in the bank and resources taken up which could be cleared to buy quality able to make a difference. Pep would find a way. Hes not a person who would put up with crap.

What? That isn't a qualitative assessment of his strengths. It's a bunch of clichés. I don't see how those qualities can be measured or why he could give it and Wenger could not. You seem to be placing a lot of faith in him to 'find a way' without a clear idea of what that isn't given he would operate under the same contrants as Wenger does.

Fundamentally the problem is thus, the squad isn't good enough, the club can't pay for the premium level players that City and Chelsea can.

it isnt just 'some guy', 'keyboard warrior' or information taken from thin air. the information has been obtained by persisting by he or she. i dont know why the media hasnt exploited Arsenal but i assure you they know. if Iain Dowie knew a couple of years ago the salaries of Bendtner, Chamakh and the rest of the players offering little to Arsenal wondering how they got those figures which match the figures in this new release makes me believe it somewhat. How would Iain Dowie know? for all the people in the world Dowie on SkySportsNews?

All the more reason to take it with a pinch of salt. People state the wages without ever given a source, seems dubious at best.

---------- Post added at 23:48 ---------- Previous post was at 23:41 ----------

Originally Posted by TheDaddy

all the major clubs.except Liverpool, the more i.hear about scouting the less I like it, seems like agents.are the driving force on a lot of clubs transfer policy.

What annoys me is the narrative that there is a legion of excellent players if only they would be brought. It isn't the case. Even Newcastle's impressive transfer dealings don't seem to be enough to let them break into the top four. At a certain level the scouting is too good and too competitive for a team to really be able to purchase established, quality players cheaply. It happens quite rarely. Normally to get a player cheap you need to take a risk. A sure thing will incur a premium. Occasionally you can buy a already known player and Wenger did this with Arteta, Mertesacker and Cazorla. However there isn't many of those purchases available.

[thenry]

Originally Posted by Damien

The decline seems to have been timed exactly when Chelsea came into Russian money. We seem to be a level below City and Chelsea smart buying isn't going to let us overtake them.

smart buying isnt going to allow us to overtake? are you joking? so spending on crap useless players wont see us decline? its always been blamed on Chelsea, boohoo get over it and pull your finger out.

Originally Posted by Damien

It's not as easy as bang for your buck. Players tend to be priced what they are worth and often a premium on top of that. There isn't a legion of great title-winning players waiting for a knock-off price. They are are rare and difficult to find. Otherwise everybody would be buying them.

really? adding a player or two in 08 was possible but not done.

Originally Posted by Damien

People in the stadium still sing 'one Arsene Wenger'. Some are annoyed at the board and understand the limitations Wenger is working under. I do not speak for all of them. However we don't see much chanted against the man or protests against him.

we did hear chants against Wenger, even banners.

Originally Posted by Damien

What? That isn't a qualitative assessment of his strengths. It's a bunch of clichés. I don't see how those qualities can be measured or why he could give it and Wenger could not. You seem to be placing a lot of faith in him to 'find a way' without a clear idea of what that isn't given he would operate under the same contrants as Wenger does.

oh so PHW picks the team does he? Ivan insists on playing Ramsey as a winger? the formation is set out in the boardroom? the way the team is addressed is voted on in the boardroom? the players the manager has to make stars is set out by the board? Stan tells Wenger to tell the team to 'go play'? come off it.

Originally Posted by Damien

Fundamentally the problem is thus, the squad isn't good enough, the club can't pay for the premium level players that City and Chelsea can.

again your going to extremes. theres players who Wenger could sign but he persists with crap instead. 'keep the faith'.

Originally Posted by Damien

All the more reason to take it with a pinch of salt. People state the wages without ever given a source, seems dubious at best.

everythings dubious to you.

[TheDaddy]

Originally Posted by Damien

The decline seems to have been timed exactly when Chelsea came into Russian money. We seem to be a level below City and Chelsea smart buying isn't going to let us overtake them.



It's not as easy as bang for your buck. Players tend to be priced what they are worth and often a premium on top of that. There isn't a legion of great title-winning players waiting for a knock-off price. They are are rare and difficult to find. Otherwise everybody would be buying them.



People in the stadium still sing 'one Arsene Wenger'. Some are annoyed at the board and understand the limitations Wenger is working under. I do not speak for all of them. However we don't see much chanted against the man or protests against him.



What? That isn't a qualitative assessment of his strengths. It's a bunch of clichés. I don't see how those qualities can be measured or why he could give it and Wenger could not. You seem to be placing a lot of faith in him to 'find a way' without a clear idea of what that isn't given he would operate under the same contrants as Wenger does.

Fundamentally the problem is thus, the squad isn't good enough, the club can't pay for the premium level players that City and Chelsea can.



All the more reason to take it with a pinch of salt. People state the wages without ever given a source, seems dubious at best.

---------- Post added at 23:48 ---------- Previous post was at 23:41 ----------



What annoys me is the narrative that there is a legion of excellent players if only they would be brought. It isn't the case. Even Newcastle's impressive transfer dealings don't seem to be enough to let them break into the top four. At a certain level the scouting is too good and too competitive for a team to really be able to purchase established, quality players cheaply. It happens quite rarely. Normally to get a player cheap you need to take a risk. A sure thing will incur a premium. Occasionally you can buy a already known player and Wenger did this with Arteta, Mertesacker and Cazorla. However there isn't many of those purchases available.

that's just it though according to Rogers they didn't have any scouts and good scouting for me is minimising the risks, doing you're home work and putting the miles in to identify unknown players. I'm not knocking Newcastle it just doesn't strike me as impressive that they managed to sign some of the top players from neighbouring leagues, that's the minimum they and everyone else for that matter should be trying to do imo.

Originally Posted by thenry

smart buying isnt going to allow us to overtake? are you joking? so spending on crap useless players wont see us decline? its always been blamed on Chelsea, boohoo get over it and pull your finger out.

It's not a coincidence that the teams with the most money rose to the top of the league. Established, quality players incur a premium precisely because if they're good enough to be in a title-winning team then there will be competition for those players and two teams in our league can afford to incur a loss.

You seem to be outraged that Wenger hasn't found a way to challenge that dominance. That isn't fair.

we did hear chants against Wenger, even banners.

I have gone to several games this season thus far. I have not heard a single chant against Wenger. Look, you're not dealing with a ignorant fool despite your tone. I have gone to Arsenal games since I was 7 years old. There are Arsenal fans who agree with me, there are Arsenal fans that agree with you. However you do not represent the entire fanbase.

oh so PHW picks the team does he? Ivan insists on playing Ramsey as a winger? the formation is set out in the boardroom? the way the team is addressed is voted on in the boardroom? the players the manager has to make stars is set out by the board? Stan tells Wenger to tell the team to 'go play'? come off it.

No. I was posted about why Pep Guardiola would do a better job. I don't think I said PHW picks the team? What's that got to do with anything. Guardiola would have to operate under the same circumstances as Wenger and I do not see evidence he'll be better at it. At Barcelona he had an incredible team. We do not have that team. His dealings in the transfer window were as hit and miss as Wenger's has been. The best players in his team were there when he arrived.

Now I like him, I like his style of football, so I want him at Arsenal. However it's not evident where we can break past the level we're at now. 3rd/4th seems to be reasonable given the resources we have.

again your going to extremes. theres players who Wenger could sign but he persists with crap instead. 'keep the faith'.

Everyone is an expert when their shouting at the TV. Maybe there is a better way and better players to buy but I don't you either you or me know what or who they are otherwise we would be paid a lot more than we are. He has been managing for a long time, he isn't a fool. Chances are he knows more than us.

everythings dubious to you.

No. Unsourced proclamations on random internet blogs are dubious to me. Sorry but I find it hard to believe someone who posts a nameless blog on the internet claiming to have the entire Arsenal payroll information is a trusted source.

[thenry]

Originally Posted by Damien

It's not a coincidence that the teams with the most money rose to the top of the league. Established, quality players incur a premium precisely because if they're good enough to be in a title-winning team then there will be competition for those players and two teams in our league can afford to incur a loss.

in 2008 we was short of a player or two. instead of buying which we could of done, Wenger banged out mega contracts to upcomers which couldnt produce at the time or at all. just because clubs are throwing money around doesnt mean its the end of the world. we have the best league in the world. Arsenal is highly attractive, well was. Wenger insisted on not signing. his choice.

Originally Posted by Damien

You seem to be outraged that Wenger hasn't found a way to challenge that dominance. That isn't fair.

because theres a way. there was a way to avoid all this. he didnt want to do it.

Originally Posted by Damien

I have gone to several games this season thus far. I have not heard a single chant against Wenger. Look, you're not dealing with a ignorant fool despite your tone. I have gone to Arsenal games since I was 7 years old. There are Arsenal fans who agree with me, there are Arsenal fans that agree with you. However you do not represent the entire fanbase.

im well aware you attend games and are highly intelligent. i dont represent the fanbase. theres people who support blindly. i didnt say this season. it did happen though.

Originally Posted by Damien

No. I was posted about why Pep Guardiola would do a better job. I don't think I said PHW picks the team? What's that got to do with anything. Guardiola would have to operate under the same circumstances as Wenger and I do not see evidence he'll be better at it. At Barcelona he had an incredible team. We do not have that team. His dealings in the transfer window were as hit and miss as Wenger's has been. The best players in his team were there when he arrived.

Wenger has different methods to Pep. Methods of not taking crap is a big one having seen atleast half our squad fall off doing nothing but toy around getting paid huge amounts.

Originally Posted by Damien

Now I like him, I like his style of football, so I want him at Arsenal. However it's not evident where we can break past the level we're at now. 3rd/4th seems to be reasonable given the resources we have.

not entirely true. if we can grab 3rd like we did last season with half a squad dont you think having the other half of the squad raring to go would put us in the title race? remember the players that offered little to nothing are not on low wages.

Originally Posted by Damien

Everyone is an expert when their shouting at the TV. Maybe there is a better way and better players to buy but I don't you either you or me know what or who they are otherwise we would be paid a lot more than we are. He has been managing for a long time, he isn't a fool. Chances are he knows more than us.

would we be given a chance. jeez our own scouts were said to have reports after reports on players who Wenger didnt bother signing and instead persisted with his ways. not all players are good enough i know but its fact Wengers persisted with way too much crap where we could have signed players to offer something to the cause.

Originally Posted by Damien

No. Unsourced proclamations on random internet blogs are dubious to me. Sorry but I find it hard to believe someone who posts a nameless blog on the internet claiming to have the entire Arsenal payroll information is a trusted source.

ok. your choice.

[adzii_nufc]

Pep was managing the greatest footballing team on the planet, problem being, What can he do with finite resources?