Scores die in Israeli air strikes

Originally Posted by chaos23

Would you expect anything else from a Zionist?

chaos, could you please explain what you mean by a "Zionist"?

[Sir John Luke]

Originally Posted by foreverwar

chaos, could you please explain what you mean by a "Zionist"?

Someone who doesn't agree with him?

[Taf]

In an editorial in The Guardian in January 2006, Khaled Meshaal, the chief of Hamas's political bureau denied antisemitism:

"Our message to the Israelis is this: We do not fight you because you belong to a certain faith or culture. Jews have lived in the Muslim world for 13 centuries in peace and harmony; they are in our religion "the people of the book" who have a covenant from God and his messenger, Muhammad (peace be upon him), to be respected and protected."

Hamas founding charter
Article 7 of the Hamas Covenant states the following: "The Day of Judgement will not come about until Muslems fight the Jews (killing the Jews), when the Jew will hide behind stones and trees. The stones and trees will say O Muslems, O Abdulla, there is a Jew behind me, come and kill him. Only the Gharkad tree, (evidently a certain kind of tree) would not do that because it is one of the trees of the Jews." (related by al-Bukhari and Muslem).

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hamas

Can we please avoid taking this topic into the realms of those who believe in a Jewish/Zionist conspiracy please, I Know I sometimes am to blame for this kind of thing but I really think that it's time we stop indulging those who wish to do so.

Originally Posted by Saaf_laandon_mo

Israel has flattened more homes in the last 10 years then Jordanians or Eygyptians have, they have slaughtered more children then Jordanians and Eygptians have, they have tortured more palestinians than the Jordanians or Egyptians have.

Additionally its all very well talking of Palestinian friends who experienced the Jordanian refugee camps, but I talk to plenty of Palestinians who have family in the area now. And to be honest they'd rather be in a Jordanian refugee camp then in their current situation.

You have made some great posts in this topic, it makes me feel uneasy at an attempt to question you because you obviously have personal experence and a good knowledge of some of the worst of Israel's actions and the innocent victims of their over-the-top punishment.

I did want to point out the problem from the Israeli side though. If you keep getting rockets fired at your people, which will also kill innocent people, and this happens often and without provocation (other than the perceived historical injustice) then cannot you not understand why Israel feels compelled to wipe out these groups once and for all. Not that it's an excuse, but it's not as if Israel is just doing this to be evil or is not provoked.

I think much of this in terms of timing and manner of attacks has a lot more to do with politics then it does with the rocket attacks themself. An incoming american president who is an unknown beyond what he stated in his election campaign (and lets be honest who expects those obligations to be adhered to once in the door) and the proximity of elections in Israel are two main things guiding this right now from the israeli side.

Hamas i think have been mind blowingly stupid in choosing this time to start firing rockets they had to know what was going to happen and i think once people have got past the israeli response they are going to start looking at and asking hard questions about anyone that would start this off in the first place and those answers will be more damning then any so called propaganda value they might get right now.

I am not excusing the civilian deaths but as has been said and while it is not nice it is true civilians do die in all conflicts but in this case you have to put the blame firstly at the feet of hamas they chose to fire rockets from civilian areas at civilian targets in Israel that was stupid and they knew damn well when they did it what was coming.

I have said before this wave of optimism that has follwed obama's election is misplaced he may well be a man who wants to right all the wrongs but thats a world apart from actually being able to do it and i think when it comes to the middle east he isn't going to make half the progress a lot think he will i hope i am wrong for the sake of the middle east but i just don't see it happening. He might have a new brush but i think he is going to find some old foreign policy stains that just won't allow themself to be swept away for no one.

[chaos23]

Here are some more facts for the Zionists among us:




Since September 2000, 123 Israelis have been killed and 1,050 Palestinian Children have been killed.



Americans contribute $0.3Miliion to the Palestinians per day and $6.8 Million per day to the Israelis - why the difference?

[Saaf_laandon_mo]

Originally Posted by Damien

Can we please avoid taking this topic into the realms of those who believe in a Jewish/Zionist conspiracy please, I Know I sometimes am to blame for this kind of thing but I really think that it's time we stop indulging those who wish to do so.



You have made some great posts in this topic, it makes me feel uneasy at an attempt to question you because you obviously have personal experence and a good knowledge of some of the worst of Israel's actions and the innocent victims of their over-the-top punishment.

I did want to point out the problem from the Israeli side though. If you keep getting rockets fired at your people, which will also kill innocent people, and this happens often and without provocation (other than the perceived historical injustice) then cannot you not understand why Israel feels compelled to wipe out these groups once and for all. Not that it's an excuse, but it's not as if Israel is just doing this to be evil or is not provoked.

And when you are born in conditions where you see barricades and blockades around you, when you spend your early years having your lives controled in where you can work, what you can do, when you grow up knowing you can't really travel out of the place you live in, when you are growing up seeing that a government across the border builds a massive wall around you, then I am sure you can understand why people would be compelled to hate those who are ultimately responsible for your circumstances.

I am not saying firing rockets into Israel is a good thing. The reality is that since Saturday 4 Israelis have been killed, as opposed to 100s of palestinians, the majority who are totally innocent, save for the fact that they elected Hamas to represent them (by the way remember, as soon as they were Elected the western world basically said, Oh We dont like that type of democracy, and closed their eyes to the barricades that Israel put up around Gaza). It seems that Israel feels that 1 Jewish life is equal to 100 Palestinian ones.

The Israeli response has been totally over the top and unjustified. It will also not solve anything apart from killing 100s of innocent people, it will not bring peace into the region. That as well as their determination not to let in aid in sufficient quanities, is only going to contribute to the loss of more life. The timing of this campaign and the closeness of the elections adds another unpleasant dimension to the whole thing.

The objective of this assault was to take out Hamas, personnel and infrastructure. Well they have virtually destroyed all Hamas infrastructure in Gaza, and yet they still continue to bomb. The common consensus now, amongst a lot of people that I speak to, is that Israel will not be happy that Hamas is totally wiped up until they kill every single man woman and child in Gaza. The fact that the Western governments call for restraint and yet do nothing about it adds to the feelings that nobody gives a damn about the palestinians.

That feeling of bitterness will sow a lot of seeds for much trouble to come in future years.


Its all very well bringing in the Jordanians and Egyptians, but put those points to any Palestinian today and try telling them that they were worse of under the Egyptians and Jordanians than they are under Israel and see what response you get.

What is this bolleaux about "the Zionists amongst us" - I am lapsed Catholic.

As usual, chaos, you ignored my previous question - what do you mean by Zionist?

btw, the Israelis have spent hundreds of millions of dollars in early warning radar systems and building roadside and school bomb shelters because of all the incoming rockets, to minimise the casualties to Israeli civilians.

Nice to see you have learned to hide where you are getting your info from - what's up with naming sources? (it's ok, your sources are simple to find - ifamericansknew.org). And strange how you picked the year for funding (2007), which is the year after Israel, the United States, Canada, and the European Union froze all funds to the Palestinian government after the formation of a Hamas-controlled government. If you had chosen any other year, you would have found that United States economic assistance for the Palestinians has averaged about $85 million per year since Israel and the PLO signed the 1993 Declaration of Principles LINK - but, then, that may not have supported the premise you were trying to forward, would it?

I do not mean to defend Israel although it is obviously the tone of my posts in most cases, but everything they do, they do in response to a danger posed to them. If Wales and Scotland decided to start firing missiles into our cities how long do you think it would be before the public demanded the sort of reaction we see Israel dish out?

I am not saying firing rockets into Israel is a good thing. The reality is that since Saturday 4 Israelis have been killed, as opposed to 100s of palestinians, the majority who are totally innocent, save for the fact that they elected Hamas to represent them (by the way remember, as soon as they were Elected the western world basically said, Oh We dont like that type of democracy, and closed their eyes to the barricades that Israel put up around Gaza). It seems that Israel feels that 1 Jewish life is equal to 100 Palestinian ones.

Well if they elect a group which provokes Israel into these attacks then we have a clear idea of the path they have chosen, we cannot help a people who refuse to take any measures themselves towards peace! I do not want to see people harmed in the way they are, and what is happening is a massive injustice and I do feel angry about it. However, I feel angry at all of them.

I am angry that Israel overacts when we should expect better from them, I am angry that other countries manipulate the Palestinian people for their own goals, and I am angry that groups like Hamas provoke the Israeli reaction for PR Gain.

The Israeli response has been totally over the top and unjustified. It will also not solve anything apart from killing 100s of innocent people, it will not bring peace into the region. That as well as their determination not to let in aid in sufficient quanities, is only going to contribute to the loss of more life. The timing of this campaign and the closeness of the elections adds another unpleasant dimension to the whole thing.

Yes, I agree. I also like the point out that my points about the provocation of the attacks is still not justification for them. Israel should be ashamed and if the people of Israel had any sense they would reject their governments brutality.

[Saaf_laandon_mo]

Originally Posted by Damien

I do not mean to defend Israel although it is obviously the tone of my posts in most cases, but everything they do, they do in response to a danger posed to them. If Wales and Scotland decided to start firing missiles into our cities how long do you think it would be before the public demanded the sort of reaction we see Israel dish out?



Well if they elect a group which provokes Israel into these attacks then we have a clear idea of the path they have chosen, we cannot help a people who refuse to take any measures themselves towards peace! I do not want to see people harmed in the way they are, and what is happening is a massive injustice and I do feel angry about it. However, I feel angry at all of them.

I am angry that Israel overacts when we should expect better from them, I am angry that other countries manipulate the Palestinian people for their own goals, and I am angry that groups like Hamas provoke the Israeli reaction for PR Gain.



Yes, I agree. I also like the point out that my points about the provocation of the attacks is still not justification for them. Israel should be ashamed and if the people of Israel had any sense they would reject their governments brutality.

When you go through life under the conditions they go through, and there is a party promising a change and coming across as the only person in 'authority' that cares for you, well it becomes easy to vote for them doesnt it.

The way I look at it, Hamas don't do themsleves any favours sending missiles into Israel, and that has to stop if there is to be any progress in the region. Isreals reaction though, as we both agree, is totally over the top. Their response to anything that is a danger to them is and has always been totally over the top and with total disregard to innocent life and future peace.

By the way I remember growing up in London when the IRA were operating. Granted there weren't any suicide bombings, (not that I remember anyway) but there was the fear of getting on the tube, or going into Oxford Street. Remeber when someone got killed in Canary Wharf? We didnt bomb the hell out of them did we? I wonder why?

[Sir John Luke]

Originally Posted by Saaf_laandon_mo

By the way I remember growing up in London when the IRA were operating. Granted there weren't any suicide bombings, (not that I remember anyway) but there was the fear of getting on the tube, or going into Oxford Street. Remeber when someone got killed in Canary Wharf? We didnt bomb the hell out of them did we? I wonder why?

Things might have been different though, if the IRA had been elected as the government of Eire and had started firing missiles from there into Northern Ireland.

Good Post Damien.

Originally Posted by Saaf_laandon_mo

When you go through life under the conditions they go through, and there is a party promising a change and coming across as the only person in 'authority' that cares for you, well it becomes easy to vote for them doesnt it.

The way I look at it, Hamas don't do themselves any favours sending missiles into Israel, and that has to stop if there is to be any progress in the region. Israel's reaction though, as we both agree, is totally over the top. Their response to anything that is a danger to them is and has always been totally over the top and with total disregard to innocent life and future peace.

By the way I remember growing up in London when the IRA were operating. Granted there weren't any suicide bombings, (not that I remember anyway) but there was the fear of getting on the tube, or going into Oxford Street. Remeber when someone got killed in Canary Wharf? We didnt bomb the hell out of them did we? I wonder why?

Yes, Don't get me wrong Israel's reaction is completely overblown. The problem is that we need to find a way for both sides to work towards a peace and it is not helped by the Palestinians. There is a very easy way to stop the Israeli attacks, stop attacking Israel.

The IRA comparison is a good one, both as a lesson for Israel to help them deal with terrorist groups and as a lesson to the Palestinians that the only time these issues get better is after people have become tired of terrorists groups and reject them. The IRA truly died because the people of Ireland had enough and both sides came to a compromise.

Hamas/Hizbollah will not destroy Israel, they only bring more death and pain to the people they claim to protect. They may not think this, because in a lot of cases these groups are actually providing medical care and education. However, the only reason that there was a absence of these things was because of the groups themselves. Equally, The only way Israel is going to be able to live in peace is if they understand the Palestinians are people, a people they actually should be able to relate to, and they deserve a home as well.

As long as terrorism remains the course of action though, nothing will ever progress. Basically, Although Israel are in the wrong here, It is up to the Palestinians to step up and say "We have had enough, we want peace". Then both sides need to give a bit of what they want up.

[chaos23]

Originally Posted by foreverwar

What is this bolleaux about "the Zionists amongst us" - I am lapsed Catholic.

As usual, chaos, you ignored my previous question - what do you mean by Zionist?

btw, the Israelis have spent hundreds of millions of dollars in early warning radar systems and building roadside and school bomb shelters because of all the incoming rockets, to minimise the casualties to Israeli civilians.

Nice to see you have learned to hide where you are getting your info from - what's up with naming sources? (it's ok, your sources are simple to find - ifamericansknew.org). And strange how you picked the year for funding (2007), which is the year after Israel, the United States, Canada, and the European Union froze all funds to the Palestinian government after the formation of a Hamas-controlled government. If you had chosen any other year, you would have found that United States economic assistance for the Palestinians has averaged about $85 million per year since Israel and the PLO signed the 1993 Declaration of Principles LINK - but, then, that may not have supported the premise you were trying to forward, would it?

Yes, $85million when they are giving billions to Israel

LOL you do try dont you, aid in 2006 to Israel $2.5Billion aid to Palestinians $153million. Now, why does Israel get so much more? They also give $1.7billion to the puppet regime in Egypt


BTW the "source" is the US State Dept.

You got nothing to say about the huge difference in child casualties?

[Saaf_laandon_mo]

Let us not forget that the Israelis were killing children in palestine long before Hamar were elected in 'power'. Many fathers have had their sons shot down by bullets for throwing stones at Israeli soldiers. Homes were being destroyed by israeli tanks long before hamas won the election.