Israel, Hamas, Hezbollah, Iran … War

[Mr K]

Originally Posted by Damien

They would, but they're a terrorist organisation. We expect more of democratic governments, especially ones that are our allies.

Are they our allies? Those days might be over. Their PM is wanted by the the International Criminal court.
https://www.icc-cpi.int/defendant/netanyahu
If he came to the UK he'd be arrested.

Originally Posted by Damien

They would, but they're a terrorist organisation. We expect more of democratic governments, especially ones that are our allies.

This sounds like an argument against frying a wasp’s nest just because the wasp that stung you is only doing what you expect a wasp to do.

Hamas might be behaving as predicted but they don’t deserve any slack for it. I appreciate you were demanding high standards of Israel rather than apologising for low standards from Hamas, but if you set uneven expectations it ends up the same, whichever end of the see-saw you look at.

Originally Posted by Chris

This sounds like an argument against frying a wasp’s nest just because the wasp that stung you is only doing what you expect a wasp to do.

I am fine with frying the wasp nest, but this is bombing the neighbourhood where the wasp nest is located and everybody in it. I appreciate that there is collateral damage in war, especially when you have terrorists like Hamas who embed themselves in a civilian population, but this is now indiscriminate. Levelling entire population centres and limiting aid.

Hamas might be behaving as predicted but they don’t deserve any slack for it. I appreciate you were demanding high standards of Israel rather than apologising for low standards from Hamas, but if you set uneven expectations it ends up the same, whichever end of the see-saw you look at.

I don't think it does. I expect higher standards from the police than from criminals, I expect higher standards of Western-aligned governments than I do of terrorist groups.

I used to defend Israel by saying that if Hamas had all the power, they would destroy Israel, whereas if Israel had all the power, they would just want to live in peace. I feel pretty stupid about that now.

[Pierre]

Originally Posted by Damien

They would, but they're a terrorist organisation. We expect more of democratic governments, especially ones that are our allies.

No, you expect “less”, you expect Israel to capitulate to the terrorist organisation.

[OLD BOY]

Originally Posted by Damien

I am fine with frying the wasp nest, but this is bombing the neighbourhood where the wasp nest is located and everybody in it. I appreciate that there is collateral damage in war, especially when you have terrorists like Hamas who embed themselves in a civilian population, but this is now indiscriminate. Levelling entire population centres and limiting aid.



I don't think it does. I expect higher standards from the police than from criminals, I expect higher standards of Western-aligned governments than I do of terrorist groups.

I used to defend Israel by saying that if Hamas had all the power, they would destroy Israel, whereas if Israel had all the power, they would just want to live in peace. I feel pretty stupid about that now.

The problem is, Damien, that if Hamas is not eliminated, this will never end. What would be your solution? Hamas is committed to destroying Israel and nothing is going to change that mindset.

The civilian casualty rate is higher than it needs to be because Hamas is using civilians as human shields, so you can blame Hamas for that!

[mrmistoffelees]

Originally Posted by OLD BOY

The problem is, Damien, that if Hamas is not eliminated, this will never end. What would be your solution? Hamas is committed to destroying Israel and nothing is going to change that mindset.

The civilian casualty rate is higher than it needs to be because Hamas is using civilians as human shields, so you can blame Hamas for that!

Just remind me how that’s worked for conflict against opponents as

Viet Cong
iRA
Taliban


Also, if you think every single woman and child was killed because they were being used as a human shield then you’re even more off your trolley with your responses than usual

Originally Posted by mrmistoffelees

Just remind me how that’s worked for conflict against opponents as

Viet Cong
iRA
Taliban


Also, if you think every single woman and child was killed because they were being used as a human shield then you’re even more off your trolley with your responses than usual

cough cough

Not to mention the Irgun Zvai Leumi, and the Lohamey Heruth Israel (aka Stern Gang)

[TheDaddy]

Originally Posted by Hugh

cough cough

Not to mention the Irgun Zvai Leumi, and the Lohamey Heruth Israel (aka Stern Gang)

Oh yes, I remember them, revered in Israel for cutting the balls off British soldiers and murdering civilians...

[Sephiroth]

Originally Posted by TheDaddy

Oh yes, I remember them, revered in Israel for cutting the balls off British soldiers and murdering civilians...

This is exactly how the stretching of sentiment brings the seeds of antisemitism.

There is no doubt that Irgun were a terrorist organisation that committed atrocities and deserved condemnation. But the words that you have chosen to use misrepresents the people of Israel.

[mrmistoffelees]

Originally Posted by Sephiroth

This is exactly how the stretching of sentiment brings the seeds of antisemitism.

There is no doubt that Irgun were a terrorist organisation that committed atrocities and deserved condemnation. But the words that you have chosen to use misrepresents the people of Israel.

You mean like the words some have chosen to describe Palestinians ?

How deliciously ironic.

[Sephiroth]

Originally Posted by mrmistoffelees

You mean like the words some have chosen to describe Palestinians ?

How deliciously ironic.

It's THE DADDY I'm talking about. Your words that Irgun acts of terrorism are "revered in Israel" that I'm calling you out on. That's where antisemitism breeds.

EDIT: Apologies to Mr. T.

Originally Posted by Sephiroth

It's YOU I'm talking about. Your words that Irgun acts of terrorism are "revered in Israel" that I'm calling you out on. That's where antisemitism breeds.

He didn’t say that…

[Sephiroth]

Originally Posted by Hugh

He didn’t say that…

Corrected in post. Thanks.

[TheDaddy]

Originally Posted by mrmistoffelees

You mean like the words some have chosen to describe Palestinians ?

How deliciously ironic.

Just ignore him, I do. 20 years ago he was probably calling our own ambassador anti semetic because he called for the cancellation of the pro irgun commemoration of The King David Hotel bombing, which Netanyahu attended incidentally and agreed with their stupid plaques that blamed the British for failing to evaluate the hotel and believed their claims of regret and dismay that 91 people were killed, 80 years on and their country's government is still parroting that line, only difference now is that instead of tens of people murdered its tens of thousands

[mrmistoffelees]

Originally Posted by TheDaddy

Just ignore him, I do. 20 years ago he was probably calling our own ambassador anti semetic because he called for the cancellation of the pro irgun commemoration of The King David Hotel bombing, which Netanyahu attended incidentally and agreed with their stupid plaques that blamed the British for failing to evaluate the hotel and believed their claims of regret and dismay that 91 people were killed, 80 years on and their country's government is still parroting that line, only difference now is that instead of tens of people murdered its tens of thousands

I think there’s a few on this thread they take the position of the quote attributed to Stalin “One death is a tragedy; a million is a statistic.”