Brexit (Old) - Page 118

Dave42 · 10-10-2018, 16:37

Sky News Breaking
‏
Verified account

@SkyNewsBreak
29m
29 minutes ago

More
EU chief Brexit negotiator Michel Barnier says a Brexit deal with the UK is within reach by next Wednesday

if deal reached and Parliament votes it down even ardent leavers cant blame EU for that but I know they will try too

jonbxx · 10-10-2018, 17:00

Quote:

Originally Posted by Dave42

Sky News Breaking
‏
Verified account

@SkyNewsBreak
29m
29 minutes ago

More
EU chief Brexit negotiator Michel Barnier says a Brexit deal with the UK is within reach by next Wednesday

if deal reached and Parliament votes it down even ardent leavers cant blame EU for that but I know they will try too

Good spot!

Looking on the Sky News web site, it looks like a North Sea border is the option. Auntie Arlene will not be happy....

100% veterinary and phytosanitary checks on the north/republic border too. Gonna need to close some roads I think.

https://news.sky.com/story/final-bre...ay-eu-11522903

Dave42 · 10-10-2018, 17:03

Quote:

Originally Posted by jonbxx

Good spot!

Looking on the Sky News web site, it looks like a North Sea border is the option. Auntie Arlene will not be happy....

100% veterinary and phytosanitary checks on the north/republic border too. Gonna need to close some roads I think.

https://news.sky.com/story/final-bre...ay-eu-11522903

can see government falling then without Auntie Arlene it will not get past parliament

OLD BOY · 10-10-2018, 17:15

Quote:

Originally Posted by Angua

You cannot say that the majority of the electorate supported either side.

Whatever happens we ALL have to live with whatever gets decided whether voted for or not and as far as I am aware, we still live in a democracy not a dictatorship.

Ok, if you want to pick hairs, the majority of the electorate who voted. I am happy with that, but I am not happy with the argument some seem to have that those who did not vote would have voted remain.

We live in a democracy, but nobody is forced to vote (in some countries, it is compulsory). However, if you don't vote, you cannot justifiably argue that the result was unfair as it wasn't what you wanted, or it wasn't representative.[COLOR="Silver"]

---------- Post added at 17:10 ---------- Previous post was at 17:06 ----------

Quote:

Originally Posted by Angua

Oddly, I am not saying we should not leave. My argument has always been about expectations. With the reality of leaving being a whole load more complicated than the simplistic referendum vote options given. Added to the narrow majority voting to leave, a significant percentage of the population need to be heard, not just ridden rough shod over.

The electorate were told quite clearly that the result would be binding.

The process to achieve that maybe complicated, but that is a matter for the politicians to resolve. There is no case for the public to be involved in actually making the ultimate decision, any more than any other decision that a government comes to in carrying out its manifesto.

---------- Post added at 17:13 ---------- Previous post was at 17:10 ----------

Quote:

Originally Posted by Dave42

Sky News Breaking
‏
Verified account

@SkyNewsBreak
29m
29 minutes ago

More
EU chief Brexit negotiator Michel Barnier says a Brexit deal with the UK is within reach by next Wednesday

if deal reached and Parliament votes it down even ardent leavers cant blame EU for that but I know they will try too

Clearly, the Northern Irish border wasn't the problem they made it out to be, then.

---------- Post added at 17:14 ---------- Previous post was at 17:13 ----------

Quote:

Originally Posted by jonbxx

Good spot!

Looking on the Sky News web site, it looks like a North Sea border is the option. Auntie Arlene will not be happy....

100% veterinary and phytosanitary checks on the north/republic border too. Gonna need to close some roads I think.

https://news.sky.com/story/final-bre...ay-eu-11522903

Well, if true, Barnier will know, unless he's an idiot, that such a solution is not acceptable, in which case there will be no deal based on that within three days!

---------- Post added at 17:15 ---------- Previous post was at 17:14 ----------

Quote:

Originally Posted by Dave42

can see government falling then without Auntie Arlene it will not get past parliament

It's not acceptable to the government, either, so it's a no deal if that's the best the EU can do.

Angua · 10-10-2018, 17:19

Quote:

Originally Posted by OLD BOY

It's not acceptable to the government, either, so it's a no deal if that's the best the EU can do.

A link would be handy. A bald statement without any back up is just speculation. Truth is, we don't know what May might try and get through, we only know what people "say" they "might" do.

Dave42 · 10-10-2018, 17:58

Quote:

Originally Posted by OLD BOY

Ok, if you want to pick hairs, the majority of the electorate who voted. I am happy with that, but I am not happy with the argument some seem to have that those who did not vote would have voted remain.

We live in a democracy, but nobody is forced to vote (in some countries, it is compulsory). However, if you don't vote, you cannot justifiably argue that the result was unfair as it wasn't what you wanted, or it wasn't representative.

---------- Post added at 17:10 ---------- Previous post was at 17:06 ----------

The electorate were told quite clearly that the result would be binding.

The process to achieve that maybe complicated, but that is a matter for the politicians to resolve. There is no case for the public to be involved in actually making the ultimate decision, any more than any other decision that a government comes to in carrying out its manifesto.

---------- Post added at 17:13 ---------- Previous post was at 17:10 ----------

Clearly, the Northern Irish border wasn't the problem they made it out to be, then.

---------- Post added at 17:14 ---------- Previous post was at 17:13 ----------

Well, if true, Barnier will know, unless he's an idiot, that such a solution is not acceptable, in which case there will be no deal based on that within three days!

---------- Post added at 17:15 ---------- Previous post was at 17:14 ----------

It's not acceptable to the government, either, so it's a no deal if that's the best the EU can do.

worst of all worlds is no deal and parliament will sure no way vote for that and before you shout project fear read article 50

Article 50

1. Any Member State may decide to withdraw from the Union in accordance with its own constitutional requirements.

2. A Member State which decides to withdraw shall notify the European Council of its intention. In the light of the guidelines provided by the European Council, the Union shall negotiate and conclude an agreement with that State, setting out the arrangements for its withdrawal, taking account of the framework for its future relationship with the Union. That agreement shall be negotiated in accordance with Article 218(3) of the Treaty on the Functioning of the European Union. It shall be concluded on behalf of the Union by the Council, acting by a qualified majority, after obtaining the consent of the European Parliament.

3. The Treaties shall cease to apply to the State in question from the date of entry into force of the withdrawal agreement or, failing that, two years after the notification referred to in paragraph 2, unless the European Council, in agreement with the Member State concerned, unanimously decides to extend this period.

4. For the purposes of paragraphs 2 and 3, the member of the European Council or of the Council representing the withdrawing Member State shall not participate in the discussions of the European Council or Council or in decisions concerning it.

A qualified majority shall be defined in accordance with Article 238(3)(b) of the Treaty on the Functioning of the European Union.

5. If a State which has withdrawn from the Union asks to rejoin, its request shall be subject to the procedure referred to in Article 49.

so every treaty will be lost for everything so project FACT

OLD BOY · 10-10-2018, 18:10

Quote:

Originally Posted by Dave42

worst of all worlds is no deal and parliament will sure no way vote for that and before you shout project fear read article 50

Article 50

1. Any Member State may decide to withdraw from the Union in accordance with its own constitutional requirements.

2. A Member State which decides to withdraw shall notify the European Council of its intention. In the light of the guidelines provided by the European Council, the Union shall negotiate and conclude an agreement with that State, setting out the arrangements for its withdrawal, taking account of the framework for its future relationship with the Union. That agreement shall be negotiated in accordance with Article 218(3) of the Treaty on the Functioning of the European Union. It shall be concluded on behalf of the Union by the Council, acting by a qualified majority, after obtaining the consent of the European Parliament.

3. The Treaties shall cease to apply to the State in question from the date of entry into force of the withdrawal agreement or, failing that, two years after the notification referred to in paragraph 2, unless the European Council, in agreement with the Member State concerned, unanimously decides to extend this period.

4. For the purposes of paragraphs 2 and 3, the member of the European Council or of the Council representing the withdrawing Member State shall not participate in the discussions of the European Council or Council or in decisions concerning it.

A qualified majority shall be defined in accordance with Article 238(3)(b) of the Treaty on the Functioning of the European Union.

5. If a State which has withdrawn from the Union asks to rejoin, its request shall be subject to the procedure referred to in Article 49.

so every treaty will be lost for everything so project FACT

I am not quaking in my boots, Dave. We will get an agreement, the only question is about the detail of that agreement.

Leavers want out, which means not being in the EU, Common Market, or Customs Union. We don't want their damn treaties!

---------- Post added at 18:10 ---------- Previous post was at 18:07 ----------

Quote:

Originally Posted by Angua

A link would be handy. A bald statement without any back up is just speculation. Truth is, we don't know what May might try and get through, we only know what people "say" they "might" do.

A link is not necessary to support an opinion. However, the view I have expressed is commonly held. Many leavers want no deal with the EU at all, and if TM breaches another red line, she'll not get it through. You will be well aware that many people believe that Chequers itself is dead, so nothing that gives away more than that stands a chance.

noel43 · 10-10-2018, 18:13

Quote:

Originally Posted by jonbxx

Good spot!

Looking on the Sky News web site, it looks like a North Sea border is the option. Auntie Arlene will not be happy....

100% veterinary and phytosanitary checks on the north/republic border too. Gonna need to close some roads I think.

https://news.sky.com/story/final-bre...ay-eu-11522903

DUP will soon put the kibosch on that idea.

Dave42 · 10-10-2018, 18:14

Quote:

Originally Posted by OLD BOY

I am not quaking in my boots, Dave. We will get an agreement, the only question is about the detail of that agreement.

Leavers want out, which means not being in the EU, Common Market, or Customs Union. We don't want their damn treaties!

---------- Post added at 18:10 ---------- Previous post was at 18:07 ----------

A link is not necessary to support an opinion. However, the view I have expressed is commonly held.

agree we get a agreement with EU big question is will it get past parliament so you don't want medicines ect cause we lose that treaty too shocking

Kursk · 10-10-2018, 18:18

Quote:

Originally Posted by ianch99

You can. Just enable reps

Meh. But thank you for helping me

Quote:

Originally Posted by ianch99

What are you scared of ?

Popularity. Cyclists like being hated

OLD BOY · 10-10-2018, 18:21

Quote:

Originally Posted by Dave42

agree we get a agreement with EU big question is will it get past parliament so you don't want medicines ect cause we lose that treaty too shocking

Stop it, Dave. Please don't fall for that nonsense. We will simply get new agreements or make new arrangements. Both sides will avoid that kind of disruption. This negotiation is more about privileges than anything else.

Remember, the EU said some months ago that the deal was already over 80% agreed. We've moved on since then, so there's not that much separating us now.

Sit tight, and enjoy the ride.

Dave42 · 10-10-2018, 18:23

Quote:

Originally Posted by OLD BOY

Stop it, Dave. Please don't fall for that nonsense. We will simply get new agreements or make new arrangements. Both sides will avoid that kind of disruption. This negotiation is more about privileges than anything else.

Remember, the EU said some months ago that the deal was already over 80% agreed. We've moved on since then, so there's not that much separating us now.

Sit tight, and enjoy the ride.

it parliament that the big hurdle OB that the biggest worry

ianch99 · 10-10-2018, 18:26

Quote:

Originally Posted by Kursk

Meh. But thank you for helping me

I am surprised you need help at your age or is it because of your age

Quote:

Originally Posted by Kursk

Popularity. Cyclists like being hated

I understand. Four wheels good, two wheels bad ..

OLD BOY · 10-10-2018, 18:27

Quote:

Originally Posted by noel43

DUP will soon put the kibosch on that idea.

They already have, haven't they? If there was a border in the North Sea, what would happen to trade between Ireland and Northern Ireland? Unless all trade to and from Ireland went via mainland Europe, there would still need to be a border between Ireland and NI.

I can't see that being acceptable as it would increase journey time and costs. Not impossible though, I guess.

ianch99 · 10-10-2018, 18:29

Quote:

Originally Posted by OLD BOY

Stop it, Dave. Please don't fall for that nonsense. We will simply get new agreements or make new arrangements. Both sides will avoid that kind of disruption. This negotiation is more about privileges than anything else.

Remember, the EU said some months ago that the deal was already over 80% agreed. We've moved on since then, so there's not that much separating us now.

Sit tight, and enjoy the ride.

Apart from possibly this?

Brexit deal 'a week away' but May must agree on customs union, says Barnier

Quote:

Michel Barnier has claimed a Brexit deal is within reach by next Wednesday but warned the prime minister that only by abandoning a key red line and agreeing to a customs union can impediments on trade between Northern Ireland and the rest of the UK be avoided.

The UK would have to give up on its plans for free-trade deals with China and the US under such an agreement, the EU’s chief negotiator insisted, but otherwise a customs and regulatory border within the territory of Britain will have to be erected.