Israel, Hamas, Hezbollah, Iran … War

[jfman]

Originally Posted by vm_tech

Creation of the "Palestinian people" - the most successful secret operation of the
KGB in the Middle East by Samuel Greenberg is an interesting book. Very short only around 60 pages long available on Kindle Unlimited

Seems legit.

Even if we accept this pretty poor attempt to deny the Palestinian people an ethnic identity (one way to avoid accusations of ethnic cleansing I guess) people born there are entitled to live there in peace and have rights under international law.

Also fails the Putin test - there’s no historic Ukrainian identity either but nobody would say it’s therefore impossible for them to be ethnically cleansed. You’d get laughed out of town for saying it.

[vm_tech]

Originally Posted by jfman

Seems legit.

Even if we accept this pretty poor attempt to deny the Palestinian people an ethnic identity (one way to avoid accusations of ethnic cleansing I guess) people born there are entitled to live there in peace and have rights under international law.

Also fails the Putin test - there’s no historic Ukrainian identity either but nobody would say it’s therefore impossible for them to be ethnically cleansed. You’d get laughed out of town for saying it.

You read it quickly

[jfman]

Originally Posted by vm_tech

You read it quickly

I relied on the Times of Israel summary, I’d seen enough.

[Sephiroth]

Originally Posted by jfman

Not by committing borderline war crimes? If that’s not possible then containment and mitigation are reasonable expectations to have for now without anyone being condemned as “not thinking Hamas should be eliminated”.

Whether elimination is realistic as you destroy the livelihoods of everyone in Gaza and thereby become a poster for signing up is another question avoided by the other side. Note: in the real world while it’s undesirable for people to join terrorist organisations people routinely do, for reasons they perceive as legitimate. Whether you or I think they are legitimate reasons or not is irrelevant to the reality.

There you go. Struggling and possibly choking on knowing that Hamas needs to be eliminated (see 7th October for details) yet unable to admit same.

[jfman]

Originally Posted by Sephiroth

There you go. Struggling and possibly choking on knowing that Hamas needs to be eliminated (see 7th October for details) yet unable to admit same.

It’s neither a struggle nor something to choke upon the desirability of the outcome.

What is a struggle is to reconcile it with the summary execution of paramedics working in a war zone. Anyone who can watch that video and accept it as a price worth paying is no better than the terrorists themselves.

[mrmistoffelees]

Originally Posted by jfman

It’s neither a struggle nor something to choke upon the desirability of the outcome.

What is a struggle is to reconcile it with the summary execution of paramedics working in a war zone. Anyone who can watch that video and accept it as a price worth paying is no better than the terrorists themselves.

Agreed

[Sephiroth]

Originally Posted by jfman

It’s neither a struggle nor something to choke upon the desirability of the outcome.

What is a struggle is to reconcile it with the summary execution of paramedics working in a war zone. Anyone who can watch that video and accept it as a price worth paying is no better than the terrorists themselves.

As already stated in this thread, war is ugly. Shit happens.
Anyone who has seen the 7th October videos ought to be able to understand what's going.

I'll ask again: Do you think that Hamas must be eliminated?

[jfman]

Originally Posted by Sephiroth

As already stated in this thread, war is ugly. Shit happens.
Anyone who has seen the 7th October videos ought to be able to understand what's going.

I'll ask again: Do you think that Hamas must be eliminated?

I’ve answered many times before, ironically including in the post you quote. The real question is can you make a completely unconditional, unqualified condemnation of Israel for executing paramedics?

[Sephiroth]

Originally Posted by jfman

I’ve answered many times before, ironically including in the post you quote. The real question is can you make a completely unconditional, unqualified condemnation of Israel for executing paramedics?

You've avoided the answer. It's a simple question, requiring a simple answer not weasel words.

Should Hamas be eliminated?

[mrmistoffelees]

Originally Posted by Sephiroth

As already stated in this thread, war is ugly. Shit happens.
Anyone who has seen the 7th October videos ought to be able to understand what's going.

I'll ask again: Do you think that Hamas must be eliminated?

War is ugly , shit happens

So, considering this war between the two sides has been going on for years and years when Hamas attacked Israel back on October 7th could you not argue that that in itself is shit happening ? Or is it only shit happens when it’s the side you want to win commits atrocities ?

[jfman]

Originally Posted by mrmistoffelees

War is ugly , shit happens

So, considering this war between the two sides has been going on for years and years when Hamas attacked Israel back on October 7th could you not argue that that in itself is shit happening ? Or is it only shit happens when it’s the side you want to win commits atrocities ?

This is the circle that cannot be squared among Israel’s supporters. Hamas executing Israeli paramedics wouldn’t be “war is ugly”, neither would any state actor carrying out the same act - Iran, Lebanon, Syrians. There would be an outcry.

One minute Hamas are the government of Gaza, making state apparatus like the health infrastructure implicitly a legitimate target, on the other hand Palestinians are denied a legitimate fighting force to carry out “ugly” acts in its name. Or atrocities, as they’d likely be known.

It’s some amount of mental gymnastics at every turn.

[Sephiroth]

Originally Posted by mrmistoffelees

War is ugly , shit happens

So, considering this war between the two sides has been going on for years and years when Hamas attacked Israel back on October 7th could you not argue that that in itself is shit happening ? Or is it only shit happens when it’s the side you want to win commits atrocities ?

When you're in the same frame of mind as one or teo others, the your logic leads to your question. Semantically, what you'be posited is valid.

But dig deeper into it, Hamas rockets can be met with Israeli rockets/shells or other military means. But when you do the 7th October thing, "shit" becomes atrocity and Israel has the duty to eliminate Hamas.

[mrmistoffelees]

Originally Posted by Sephiroth

When you're in the same frame of mind as one or teo others, the your logic leads to your question. Semantically, what you'be posited is valid.

But dig deeper into it, Hamas rockets can be met with Israeli rockets/shells or other military means. But when you do the 7th October thing, "shit" becomes atrocity and Israel has the duty to eliminate Hamas.

Dig even deeper & atrocities have been committed by both sides over the entire conflict.

Israel does quite rightly have a right to eliminate Hamas BUT it must do so within the rules of law.

The behavior we’ve seen with regards to the execution of innocent medics and subsequent attempted cover up is not an isolated incident.

The behaviour of both Hamas & the Israeli government is the same the only differnence is the methods used (ultimately when the window dressing is removed the reasoning is pretty much the same)

One is decried and vilified the other is celebrated and vindicated

[jfman]

Executing innocent people under a national flag is no more right or moral than any ramshackle group of militants with a cause.

[Pierre]

Originally Posted by ianch99

My time here is done ...

Don’t let the door hit you on the way out.

---------- Post added at 20:50 ---------- Previous post was at 20:49 ----------

Originally Posted by 1andrew1

Releasing the Israeli hostages, which I would like to see happen, is not going to make the Israeli response proportionate.

Why does the Israeli response have to be “proportionate”?