The state benefits system mega-thread.

[johnhook]

Originally Posted by heero_yuy

Some figures to back up that assertion would be good.

well firstly the figures posted earlier in this thread

220 billion Welfare bill

Government spending 720 billion http://visual.ons.gov.uk/uk-perspect...ces-in-the-uk/ 600 and something of that comes from the tax payer

JSA 2.353 billion
ESA 13.7 billion
so for point of arguement 16 billion
If you add the housing benefit and all the tax credits to this although these are shared between a much wider demograph you come up to 68 billion this figure is higher than what those on ESA and JSA would be claiming but its a figure so lets say 10% of the total tax an ni take goes to those on ESA and JSA way over estimated

So everyone on the sick and unemployed has a maximum total take off the tax payer of 10% of their tax (already a fraction)

So if 50% of all those claiming were to be swinging the lead you get a maximum of 5% the total tax take again massively over estimated
all figures taken from the graph here http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/arti...12billion.html

Now lets look at the DWPs fraud and error levels

2013/14 are complete

Total 3.4 billion lost in total of which 2.2 was claimant or official error 1.3 % of expenditure 1.2 billion lost to fraud 0.7 % expenditure

https://www.gov.uk/government/upload...al_Release.pdf

Now I am not a mathematician but it is clear to me the very highest lost to the workshy is 5% of the whole tax and NI take down to 0.7 % of 2013/14s welfare bill which is something stupid like 0.15% of the whole take



So I stand firmly by the belief that only a fraction of our tax goes to the work shy

[Kursk]

Originally Posted by johnhook

I do really want to know exactly how much they think they are losing to the work shy and why do they harbour such resentment

You acknowledge that some people are work shy; every penny that goes to those people means someone else in real need is missing out.

Is it wrong that the people who provide the funding (taxpayers) should expect the system to deliver benefit to the right people?

The reason why spongers are resented is, with respect, pretty obvious.

[johnhook]

Originally Posted by Kursk

You acknowledge that some people are work shy; every penny that goes to those people means someone else in real need is missing out.

Is it wrong that the people who provide the funding (taxpayers) should expect the system to deliver benefit to the right people?

The reason why spongers are resented is, with respect, pretty obvious.

I agree totally but I just want it put into proportion and the proportion is tiny and has been blown well out of proportion to fit an agenda

A vast numbers of legitimate claimants are also resented and been treated badly which in my opinion trumps the tax payer

[Kursk]

Originally Posted by johnhook

I agree totally but I just want it put into proportion and the proportion is tiny and has been blown well out of proportion to fit an agenda

By whom?

[johnhook]

Originally Posted by Kursk

By whom?

Whoever it is who really pulls the strings in this country. Direct focus on the weak while the strong continue unhindered

It is propaganda all the news about benefit cuts and emergency budget. Seriously for 12 billion ?

All the while the fat cats with their tax loopholes and fingers in pies offering back handers here and there and laughing to the sums of hundreds of billions

Never more has the phrase " The rich get richer while the poor get poorer" been true than it is today

[Kursk]

Originally Posted by johnhook

Whoever it is who really pulls the strings in this country. Direct focus on the weak while the strong continue unhindered

It is propaganda all the news about benefit cuts and emergency budget. Seriously for 12 billion ?

All the while the fat cats with their tax loopholes and fingers in pies offering back handers here and there and laughing to the sums of hundreds of billions

Never more has the phrase " The rich get richer while the poor get poorer" been true than it is today

It's just as well that money, whilst important, isn't everything.

[heero_yuy]

Originally Posted by johnhook

well firstly the figures posted earlier in this thread

<big snip>

So I stand firmly by the belief that only a fraction of our tax goes to the work shy

It's a long thread, thank you.

Originally Posted by johnhook

I apologise the question was poor

It should have been how many people on ESA and JSA do you think are work shy and not actually ill or disabled and how many on JSA can not find a job or do you think maybe most of those on ESA are sick and disabled and a good portion on JSA either can not get a job or perhaps a large number actually get a job and some are newly unemployed?

I'll have a crack at answering that .

In my opinion a lot of those claiming disability benefits could actually work,not every ailment needs state support ,I am living proof of that .The problem is that in the past it was so easy to claim that claiming benefits for the slightest health issue became the first option for many because it was the easiest option ,in fact any claim for any benefit should be the last resort when all other options have failed.The government are trying to change the way people see benefits ,it has been pointed out that the overall savings will be comparatively small ,what some people don't realise though is that ,that is only half the reason for the cuts ,the government want to make claiming benefits difficult so people will see it as a last resort,just like it used to be ,that way everyone will benefit .

[johnhook]

Originally Posted by martyh

I'll have a crack at answering that .

In my opinion a lot of those claiming disability benefits could actually work,not every ailment needs state support ,I am living proof of that .The problem is that in the past it was so easy to claim that claiming benefits for the slightest health issue became the first option for many because it was the easiest option ,in fact any claim for any benefit should be the last resort when all other options have failed.The government are trying to change the way people see benefits ,it has been pointed out that the overall savings will be comparatively small ,what some people don't realise though is that ,that is only half the reason for the cuts ,the government want to make claiming benefits difficult so people will see it as a last resort,just like it used to be ,that way everyone will benefit .

Thank you

---------- Post added at 18:15 ---------- Previous post was at 18:14 ----------

Originally Posted by heero_yuy

It's a long thread, thank you.

feedback?

---------- Post added at 18:15 ---------- Previous post was at 18:15 ----------

Originally Posted by Kursk

It's just as well that money, whilst important, isn't everything.

when you have very little it is hard not to think about anything else

[ianch99]

Originally Posted by johnhook

Whoever it is who really pulls the strings in this country. Direct focus on the weak while the strong continue unhindered

It is propaganda all the news about benefit cuts and emergency budget. Seriously for 12 billion ?

All the while the fat cats with their tax loopholes and fingers in pies offering back handers here and there and laughing to the sums of hundreds of billions

Never more has the phrase " The rich get richer while the poor get poorer" been true than it is today

It is this post that sums up the real issue here. The focus of the Tories, the right-wing press, etc. is to target the the poorer sections of society in order to save some of the money the Government requires. The end result of this campaign is a context where reducing benefits for all is acceptable.

The fact that these cuts will impact the people who may need the money as well as the much discussed "scroungers" is just seen as collateral damage. A shame but that's life, right?

Some perspective: Last year, Britain’s financial sector paid out £15bn in bonuses and bonuses paid out in the financial sector have reached £91bn since October 2007. This figure is likely to exceed £100bn by the end of March

Yes, these are BONUSES, money on top of an already high salary .. and the Government is screwing the poor for 12 billion? This is the real problem with our society as John has highlighted ..

Originally Posted by ianch99

Yes, these are BONUSES, money on top of an already high salary .. and the Government is screwing the poor for 12 billion? This is the real problem with our society as John has highlighted ..

The governments job is to govern the country not administer bonuses to bankers ,one has nothing to do with the other .

---------- Post added at 19:42 ---------- Previous post was at 19:37 ----------

Originally Posted by ianch99

It is this post that sums up the real issue here. The focus of the Tories, the right-wing press, etc. is to target the the poorer sections of society in order to save some of the money the Government requires. The end result of this campaign is a context where reducing benefits for all is acceptable.

The fact that these cuts will impact the people who may need the money as well as the much discussed "scroungers" is just seen as collateral damage. A shame but that's life, right?

The end result will be a society that will use the benefit system as it was intended .Like it or not people have to be more accountable for their own lives instead of running to the state when things get a bit tough

[TheDaddy]

Originally Posted by martyh

The governments job is to govern the country not administer bonuses to bankers ,one has nothing to do with the other

It has everything to do with government when the things they do to get these bonuses land the country in brown stuff over and over again. Any one else gets found guilty of massive conspiracy fraud and sent to jail, they get fined for miss selling, still what better can we expect when they have the top politicians and their parties bought and paid for

Originally Posted by TheDaddy

It has everything to do with government when the things they do to get these bonuses land the country in brown stuff over and over again. Any one else gets found guilty of massive conspiracy fraud and sent to jail, they get fined for miss selling, still what better can we expect when they have the top politicians and their parties bought and paid for

I meant in the context of this thread .You could outlaw bankers bonuses as much as you want but you will always have poor people ,you will always have people who think the world owes them a living, you will always have people with a chip on their shoulder against anyone better off than themselves and you will always have people not prepared to help themselves ........but bankers won't get bonuses so all is well .

[TheDaddy]

Originally Posted by martyh

I meant in the context of this thread .You could outlaw bankers bonuses as much as you want but you will always have poor people ,you will always have people who think the world owes them a living, you will always have people with a chip on their shoulder against anyone better off than themselves and you will always have people not prepared to help themselves ........but bankers won't get bonuses so all is well .

Perhaps if the government were properly regulating that industry instead of bashing the poor and sick this whole mess could've been avoided, banker bashing there's a laugh, they should try being on dla a while then they can moan about bashing.

Btw I actually thought you were talking about bankers for a second there, you described them so well, chip on shoulder, prepared to help themselves, don't like anyone better of than themselves etc etc

[Kursk]

Originally Posted by johnhook

when you have very little it is hard not to think about anything else

Which is why it is important to ensure those in need get proper support and those who aren't, don't. If the imbalances of our society need to be rectified, then we have to start somewhere.

The bigger fish will have to await the revolution.