Should Corporal Punishment Be Brought Back ?

[Flubflow]

Originally Posted by Incognitas

No not always.Some students just have problems in certain subjects like languages(seems crazy to me teaching a child who is barely literate in english another language)or maths and can cope elsewhere.Also I'm not talking about poorer ability students,I'm talking about disruptive ones.Not every disruptive child is the traditional two planks variety.Some are very bright.I believe I pointed out that the superbright(genius) children will be eventually included under the Special Needs umberella.These children have the greatest ability to be disruptive because they apply intelligence and logic to their methods of misbehaviour-a very dangerous element.

No,sin bins just don't work.

I can well understand that too.

[Xaccers]

Originally Posted by Flubflow

Here is a useful link peeps....
http://www.early-education.org.uk/1leaflet16.htm
If, after reading and applying all that, any parent *still* feels that smacking their child is a good idea then further expert help is probably needed for the parent and/or child.

Originally Posted by that link

The dangers of smacking

Young children learn best by copying, so it is no surprise that smacking teaches children to behave aggressively. Parents who smack their children will find that the effect wears off very quickly and their children will become gradually more and more difficult to manage.

If that was the case, then society would have gone from a more violent people to less violent people as parents moved away from spanking.
So how does it explain the increase in violent crimes?
From my experience, as a child, being with children, and being with parents shows that statement to not be the case.

For instance, one couple I know are teachers at a school for disruptive teenagers, they are able to use restraining forces to subdue any aggressive pupils. It works, the kids learn that they are not able to get away with being disruptive and eventually give up.
However, at home, they've never used more than reasoning with their children, as such, their children know that they can get away with anything as all that their parents will do is say "now, I don't think that's very good of you", kid thinks "ooo big deal, I want to do it, you're not stopping me, so I'm going to do what I like"
When kids need to learn what is right and wrong, they're too young to understand reasoning, but they are able to understand that if they do something and it hurts them, then they won't do it again.
Associating this with the word "no" means that as the child develops, it associates being told no with the slap, and realises that if it responds to the no, it won't get a slap.
The problem comes when the child reaches about 6-7 when they develope a stronger sense of themselves, and will try and push the no limit to see if it is still in effect. If the parent doesn't re-affirm this limit, then the work is undone and the child then learns that the parent no longer has power. Such a situation is like when you see a parent saing "I'm going to count to 3, 1, 2, 2 and a bit" and then not following through with the punishment.

[Ramrod]

Originally Posted by Flubflow

So why did my nephew come to me the other week and say, "I've been moved up into the top group in maths" ?

I have no idea. Maby it's a progresssive school (which would be nice) or maby it's a group within the class.
*edit* just read Kittys post. I ws talking B*llocks again it seems

[Xaccers]

Originally Posted by Flubflow

So why did my nephew come to me the other week and say, "I've been moved up into the top group in maths" ?

Maths, science and english were split into levels when I was at school.
The other subjects were a total mix, and as has been said, even bright kids can be distruptive

Which ever way you like it, the left wingers have won on this.
Not only are we not allowed to smack our own children, wqe are not allowed to defend ourselves. If I was attacked by a gang of kids threatening me, I am Damned sure I give at least one of them a few injuries.

However this debate is about punichment not Injuring. I went to senior school not long after the slipper etc had been fully banned (I started in 1987). We did have a teacher that carried on giving the slipper in some circumstances and was warned several times about it. He then went on to poking you with his finger, and I mean this guy must have had a steel rod in his figer cos when he was finnished you were covered in Bruises. I dont agree with this kind of thing as when it happened to me I just happened to be in the wrong place at the wrong time and was not involved in the incident, yet I was treat the same. So I opened my mouth and got worse, that is until I created such a scene My parents were called. The headmaster had to drag my father of this teacher, my arm was purple and very swollen, severe bruising was diagnosed.

However if Children have been up to no good I see no reason why a small form of none injury causing slaps shouldnt be used. And I am looking forward to the day when these little ****s get a slap or more of the coppers and thier parents.

To the parents that dont believe in smacking:-

Shouting tarquin stop it darling is not going to work slap the little *******, he'll soon stop it.

Originally Posted by Flubflow

So why did my nephew come to me the other week and say, "I've been moved up into the top group in maths" ?

All secondary students are streamed these days.With league tables and SATS tests you are not going to get any other way of dealing with the differing abilities.So much for comprehensive education.

[Xaccers]

Originally Posted by Kitty

The latest punishment in schools I do disagree with as it punishes those who have done nothing wrong.

We had that with a German class.
The books had a picture of a sausage with legs/face/arms, and someone had turned it into a penis.
We were all given detention unless the person who did it owned up.
I pointed out that the books are left out on the side and the door unlocked so anyone could have come in and done it. I was told it was terrible that I was trying to put the blame on someone else!

Anyway, we all got given detention slips, and my friend's dad, who had faught in WW2, wrote on there how disgusted he was at this, comparing it to how the Nazi's would line up all the men in a captured village and shoot them one by one until the person who killed a nazi officer owned up.

[Xaccers]

Originally Posted by timewarrior2001

He then went on to poking you with his finger, and I mean this guy must have had a steel rod in his figer cos when he was finnished you were covered in Bruises.

He wasn't called Mr Allen was he?
He used to do that at Purbrook Park School.
We also had Mr Potter in PE who throttled at least 2 kids while I was there.

[Xaccers]

Originally Posted by Incognitas

All secondary students are streamed these days.With league tables and SATS tests you are not going to get any other way of dealing with the differing abilities.So much for comprehensive education.

I thought comprehensive meant being taught more than the three R's not having pupils of varying abilities in the same class

Originally Posted by Xaccers

I thought comprehensive meant being taught more than the three R's not having pupils of varying abilities in the same class

It meant both.

[Flubflow]

Originally Posted by Xaccers

If that was the case, then society would have gone from a more violent people to less violent people as parents moved away from spanking.
So how does it explain the increase in violent crimes?
From my experience, as a child, being with children, and being with parents shows that statement to not be the case.

For instance, one couple I know are teachers at a school for disruptive teenagers, they are able to use restraining forces to subdue any aggressive pupils. It works, the kids learn that they are not able to get away with being disruptive and eventually give up.
However, at home, they've never used more than reasoning with their children, as such, their children know that they can get away with anything as all that their parents will do is say "now, I don't think that's very good of you", kid thinks "ooo big deal, I want to do it, you're not stopping me, so I'm going to do what I like"
When kids need to learn what is right and wrong, they're too young to understand reasoning, but they are able to understand that if they do something and it hurts them, then they won't do it again.
Associating this with the word "no" means that as the child develops, it associates being told no with the slap, and realises that if it responds to the no, it won't get a slap.
The problem comes when the child reaches about 6-7 when they develope a stronger sense of themselves, and will try and push the no limit to see if it is still in effect. If the parent doesn't re-affirm this limit, then the work is undone and the child then learns that the parent no longer has power. Such a situation is like when you see a parent saing "I'm going to count to 3, 1, 2, 2 and a bit" and then not following through with the punishment.

If positive reinforcement does not work then you are just not trying hard enough.
The idea of associating NO=SLAP is brutal conditioning best reserved for animals of a lower order.
What you are describing is remedial action based on the worst case scenarios where the child or others could come to worse harm rather than a general model of how to teach children good behavior.

[Flubflow]

Originally Posted by Xaccers

He wasn't called Mr Allen was he?
He used to do that at Purbrook Park School.
We also had Mr Potter in PE who throttled at least 2 kids while I was there.

Careful there m8. He may be reading this. You won't want a defamatory "Friends Reunited" type incident in the courts.

[Xaccers]

Originally Posted by Flubflow

If positive reinforcement does not work then you are just not trying hard enough.
The idea of associating NO=SLAP is brutal conditioning best reserved for animals of a lower order.
What you are describing is remedial action based on the worst case scenarios where the child or others could come to worse harm rather than a general model of how to teach children good behavior.

You try reasoning with a 3 year old then.
If positive reinforcement doesn't work its because it doesn't actually affect the child!
If slapping children was so bad, then how come it wasn't until parents stopped doing it that youth crime increased, people started becoming afraid to go down to the shops after dark because of the groups of disrespectful youths?
Why is it that the number of assults on teachers by pupils have gone up since corporal punishment was abolished?

[Xaccers]

Originally Posted by Flubflow

Careful there m8. He may be reading this. You won't want a defamatory "Friends Reunited" type incident in the courts.

As it's true, I have nothing to worry about.

[Flubflow]

Originally Posted by Xaccers

You try reasoning with a 3 year old then.
If positive reinforcement doesn't work its because it doesn't actually affect the child!
If slapping children was so bad, then how come it wasn't until parents stopped doing it that youth crime increased, people started becoming afraid to go down to the shops after dark because of the groups of disrespectful youths?
Why is it that the number of assults on teachers by pupils have gone up since corporal punishment was abolished?

I've reasoned with a 3 year old and if you make the effort to understand something of what is going on in their tiny heads on their level then it is much more fulfilling for everyone than a smack. Postitive discipline is not a quick fix pill for an existing problem but something that sometimes has to be built up over time and with some effort. Much more effort than a smack.

I don't know quite how you can just casually rubbish the experts like that by making broad statements that positive discipline does not work and has no effect. Maybe you have misunderstood the information in the link I gave or perhaps you need to look for some more expert resources on the subject which may deal with more specific examples.

Have you watched any of that series on TV at the moment (forget what its called) where an expert teaches parents how to deal with unruly children. The results (quite rapid results too) speak for themselves and not a smack in sight.

As I've been trying to point out, smacking is not the only form of discipline. There will be a correlation between the breakdown in *any* form of discipline employed at home and the increase in youth crime or problems at school etc. It is illogical to say it is all because they all weren't smacked enough. It would be more likely that a child may have a problem due to being smacked too much. With a more positive approach you don't have to worry too much about being too positive.

At the end of the day, the fact is that smacking is not allowed in schools and it will never come back. You can either sit there moaning and wishing about the "good ole days" or you can push for a better more positive way. The easiest way to start with that is in the home with your own kids. With the wealth of information we have at our fingertips, instantly available via the internet for free, we have absolutely no excuse for not trying.