Workers To Win Bank Holiday Rights

[blackthorn]

I`m one of the people who gets 20 days a year including bank holidays.
What this means to me, is that in effect I can take off at the most, 1 @ 2week break during the year. The other days are fragmented as and when bank holidays fall.
If this gets through, what it will mean to me is that i will be allowed to take 2 @ 2week breaks plus have the bank holidays off.
When this government announced (I`m not sure when, a couple of years ago) that all workers would be entitled to 4 weeks holiday a year, I think it was meant to be had in weekly breaks and not spread in days off here and there.

[Escapee]

My attitude is one of "you get what you earn", not one of "let's be nice to everyone". Opportunities should be EARNED.[/QUOTE]

Although its not really at the centre of this topic, its something I strongly agree with. Labour government and unions do generally improve pay and conditions for the lower paid, but its the same old story where the unions negotiate things across the board that benefit the lazy and the hard working alike.

I still think its strange that people who took jobs with 20 days annual holidays are being handed an extra 8 days a year, and those with over 28 days that could of earned the extra days through their years of service can go and take a running jump!

Who mentioned generous? The government deem it sufficient, that's what counts.

And yes, "run". I have been a senior manager in the world's 147th largest company (at the time). I have also held senior posts in companies with turnover of more than 1 billion Euros. Prior to that, I was a director/shareholder of several companies, so yes technically I did "own" and "run". (Care for some cream on your humble pie?). In my youth I was on the "bottom rung" of the pay scale, and I worked my butt off to climb the ladder. My attitude is one of "you get what you earn", not one of "let's be nice to everyone". Opportunities should be EARNED.

I'm back. England 2 Azerbyan 0. Dull. Two walls painted in my bedroom (multi-tasking, hope you're impressed.

Ok, thank you for at long last establishing your credentials. So now we both know we're qualified to comment as 'employers' so can we stop the put downs of the 'theorists' and maybe listen to people like Blackthorn a bit more.

and personally I think you should be nice to everyone. You can be firm, fair and nice you know!

Finally, not everyone gets the same opportunities. My mate works hard in Tesco but doesn't have the attributes to become Terry Leahy. She should still get her BHs.

EDIT. and as for the minimum wage. The Government s realistric enough not to set the min wage at a level which will get the Daily Mail and the CBI having a real dicky fit. Nice to see it gradually increasing though. And,oh look, the wheels of business still turn with high levels of employent.

EDIT: Escapee, an awful lot of people who are low paid work hard. Who'd be a care assistant for example. Shift work, lousy pay and some tough tasks. Management pay also awards the lazy, the incompetent and the greedy, so it's a two way street. And good management will manage staff to motivate and get the most out of them - employment laws are very much in their favour too.

[me283]

Originally Posted by Escapee

My attitude is one of "you get what you earn", not one of "let's be nice to everyone". Opportunities should be EARNED.

Although its not really at the centre of this topic, its something I strongly agree with. Labour government and unions do generally improve pay and conditions for the lower paid, but its the same old story where the unions negotiate things across the board that benefit the lazy and the hard working alike.

I still think its strange that people who took jobs with 20 days annual holidays are being handed an extra 8 days a year, and those with over 28 days that could of earned the extra days through their years of service can go and take a running jump! [/QUOTE]

My thoughts exactly. People forget that some of us try to do well by working hard; then when the government decide t reward those who either don't work so hard or didn't make the same choices, you start to wonder why you bothered in the first place. Too many people in this country expect something for nothing; worse still, they get it.

Andy, let me put a hypothetical question to you. Let's assume you work for a company, and due to long service you get 25 days holiday plus Bank Holidays. Now, a new person in this company ony gets 15 days plus Bank Holidays. Now, the management say that due to new laws they have to give the new person 20 days... but they can only do so by taking away your 5 extra days due to the state of the company. How would you feel?
__________________

Originally Posted by blackthorn

I`m one of the people who gets 20 days a year including bank holidays.
What this means to me, is that in effect I can take off at the most, 1 @ 2week break during the year. The other days are fragmented as and when bank holidays fall.
If this gets through, what it will mean to me is that i will be allowed to take 2 @ 2week breaks plus have the bank holidays off.
When this government announced (I`m not sure when, a couple of years ago) that all workers would be entitled to 4 weeks holiday a year, I think it was meant to be had in weekly breaks and not spread in days off here and there.

I would change jobs if I were you; or renegotiate your contract. But then, there may be other benefits that appeal to you in your job.

[carlingman]

Originally Posted by Incognitas

Actually teachers holidays already include the Bank holidays.Don't get them separate anyway...

However I'm not thinking of me you twit...Which you already know IF you were actually paying any attention...

I can see somone going on ignore at this rate...

Oh please not a plea from us poor teachers.

Sorry but thread is about extra bank holidays for those that need them.

Donââ‚Âà ‚¬ÃƒÂ¢Ã¢â‚¬Å¾Ã‚¢t they get enough perks with 13 weeks holiday a year, 5 days training and only obliged to work 195 days a year coupled with fact it is days regularly with a 3.30pm finish.

Ok I will concede to the fact that I am now going to get flamed with what the coursework we do during the holidays, the parent evening etc but compared to some with the reasonable wage they have it easier.

Originally Posted by me283

Sounds like a nice reasoned debate to me. Just like the teachers when I was at school. It's funny, but they could dish it out too, but could never take it back...

Originally Posted by Incognitas

Ach! I should have realised it was a wind up against me from the start...

After all teachers are fair game for some....

However when challenged most wouldn't even consider doing the job...even for the holidays.

<unsubscribe>

Why because someone raises a valid point.

Teachers are fair game to me in a thread about Holidays.

As for doing the job well bemuses me as well as to why more people donââ‚Âà ‚¬ÃƒÂ¢Ã¢â‚¬Å¾Ã‚¢t with starting salary on average of £13k or £15k for a graduate rising to £35k not a bad career choice if it is your cup of tea. (Figures are a conservative estimate0.

Most of the Teachers are to some degree dedicated, work hard and are probably undervalued but there are exceptions as with any industry who should be culled from there and stop corrupting and ruining our childrenââ‚à ƒâ€šÃ‚¬ÃƒÂ¢Ã¢â‚¬Å¾Ã‚¢s futures.

Originally Posted by Incognitas

I think I TEACH in the real world.

Only think as I thought you unsubscribed from the real world a long time ago.

Originally Posted by ian@huth

The problem is that there are as many REAL worlds as there are inhabitants. It is evident from many postings on these forums that a lot of members think that their own experiences and views are the same as those of the vast majority of people.

Exactly and hence why discussion threads such as this exist as everyone will have a view or opinion of their own.

Originally Posted by me283

Well I wouldn't want you teaching my children. I would prefer them to be taught by someone who can hold a reasoned, balanced discussion, not get insulting when they are challenged. I wonder how OFSTED would view your approach?

And I thought you had unsubscribed?

Me too

Originally Posted by me283

Very good point Ian. We all relate to our own "real world". I have been one of those who works Bank Holidays, for no extra money or entitlement. I went into that situation with my eyes open, and just got on with it. Needs must, and all that. But it vexates me when the government decide to blatantly "buy" votes, whilst at the same time hindering the good old "small businessman" who already has enough on his plate. After all, there are less than 2 million of them, so they win more points than they lose. Simple maths, eh? Nothing personal.

Agreed but as many have said this is purely electioneering and looking after the Public Service worker and screwing over the small business.

Originally Posted by Chris T

The point is not so much about whether you're entitled to get a paid day off on any given Bank Holiday, it's more about the minimum amount of paid holiday time workers in the UK should be entitled to. In my first job I did work some bank hols, but I always had another day off in lieu as well as getting overtime (very rare in newspapers these days!)

Most of us, when we start a job and look at the contract terms, look at a holiday entitlement of, say, 20 or 25 days, and think, 'ooh, goody, that's four/five working weeks a year'. We assume, before we even get to the sentence that confirms it, that bank hols are on top of this. What we are effectively getting is 28 or 32 days a year, although generally eight of those days have to be taken on the bank hols as they arise, rather than us having the choice about when to have them.

So it came as a big surprise to me, some years ago, when I was offered a job and discovered (only upon directly questioning the person interviewing me, I might add), that the holiday entitlement of 20 days quoted in the contract was inclusive of all bank holidays. That effectively meant that in any given year, I had two weeks and two days to take off as I chose, and then the bank holidays. And all this was quite legal. I'm sorry, but in a country as economically powerful and prosperous as ours, there is absolutely no excuse for anyone being forced to accept such a measly holiday entitlement. Fortunately for me, I had a CV good enough to allow me to walk away from that job offer and find an alternative. Thankfully it's rare for an industry that recruits professionally qualified staff to offer such rotten terms. A great many other people do not have the benefit of professional qualifications or experience on their CVs and have to take the first job they can get, no matter how poor the conditions.

Making Bank Holidays a legal entitlement, alongside the current legal entitlement of 20 days' paid leave a year, will effectively result in everyone being entitled to 28 days holiday. In most cases that will be four weeks, plus eight days as they arise. In some cases it'll be five weeks and three days. Whichever way you cut it, I think it's a lot more equitable.

Top post m8.

From my own perspective I say good luck to them as I currently in my place of work used to manage a lot of temporary workers who had no option but to take the bank holidays unpaid as the firm would close on bank holidays due to the fact we provide technical and financial support to the Dti so they donââ‚Âà ‚¬ÃƒÂ¢Ã¢â‚¬Å¾Ã‚¢t work we donââ‚Âà ‚¬ÃƒÂ¢Ã¢â‚¬Å¾Ã‚¢t work.

On the flip side for me I get 25 days paid annual leave plus bank holidays plus flexi so it is does not really affect myself but like Chris T if originally when accepting the job I didnâ₠¬Ã¢â€žÂ¢t like the leave offered then I would not have signed the contract and taken the job.

In an ideal world I would love to see everyone given 25 days leave a year and abolish bank holidays as they are nothing but travel chaos days anyway on the roads but then again thatâ₠¬Ã¢â€žÂ¢s never gonna happen.

I don't think I deserve any of the comments I have recieved in this thread..I was trying to make the point for others who don't get fair treatment as far as Bank holidays go.Then it turns into an attack on me and teachers...So how do you expect me to take it? I'm supposed NOT to have an opinion just because I have sooo many holidays...

But there you go as I said it's easier to pick on teachers about holidays is it not?

And of course the pay is good..it has to be to get anyone interested in doing the job..It's working too for the moment as we have a lot of new teachers and trainees..Good luck to them.

As a supply teacher I did quite well last year,broke the 12k mark for the first time ever as a supply.Oh and I should perhaps point out that ALL my holidays are unpaid ones.Supply teachers only get paid for the days they work.We also get no sick pay...

However this is a digression from the real topic which as far as I'm concerned is only fair for those who don't get a fair crack of the whip when it comes to working conditions,pay and holidays...IF I'm allowed to have an opinion on this that is.

Originally Posted by me283

Although its not really at the centre of this topic, its something I strongly agree with. Labour government and unions do generally improve pay and conditions for the lower paid, but its the same old story where the unions negotiate things across the board that benefit the lazy and the hard working alike.

I still think its strange that people who took jobs with 20 days annual holidays are being handed an extra 8 days a year, and those with over 28 days that could of earned the extra days through their years of service can go and take a running jump!

My thoughts exactly. People forget that some of us try to do well by working hard; then when the government decide t reward those who either don't work so hard or didn't make the same choices, you start to wonder why you bothered in the first place. Too many people in this country expect something for nothing; worse still, they get it.[/QUOTE]

Where are all these lazy people? Working in care homes? Retail? The same working conditions do and should apply to a post. If a worker is, as you suggest, lazy, then that's a management issue. It what management are paid to do - presaumably they are being lazy if they allow it? And, this is a point I've dealt with previously.

"Handed" 8 extra days? No. Given equality of entitlement? Yes.

Andy, let me put a hypothetical question to you. Let's assume you work for a company, and due to long service you get 25 days holiday plus Bank Holidays. Now, a new person in this company ony gets 15 days plus Bank Holidays. Now, the management say that due to new laws they have to give the new person 20 days... but they can only do so by taking away your 5 extra days due to the state of the company. How would you feel?

Well they wouldn't be able to that. Employment law may have been strengthened in favour of employers, but not to the extent that existing contracts, customs and practices can be overruled.
__________________

I would change jobs if I were you; or renegotiate your contract.

Just like that if you will please Blackthorn.

But then, there may be other benefits that appeal to you in your job.

Well yes, not all of us work just for money. But we all want our holiday entitlement.

Originally Posted by Incognitas

I don't think I deserve any of the comments I have recieved in this thread..I was trying to make the point for others who don't get fair treatment as far as Bank holidays go.Then it turns into an attack on me and teachers...So how do you expect me to take it? I'm supposed NOT to have an opinion just because I have sooo many holidays...

But there you go as I said it's easier to pick on teachers about holidays is it not?

It is indeed. I mean, it's not as if you do an important job, educating the next generation so they can benefit themselves and others. C'mon woman, get a grip!

However this is a digression from the real topic which as far as I'm concerned is only fair for those who don't get a fair crack of the whip when it comes to working conditions,pay and holidays...IF I'm allowed to have an opinion on this that is.

I'm not sure you are allowed an opinion, not being a captain of industry. There will have to be an executive meeting.

Originally Posted by me283

I take it you're not an employer either? Ah, words of wisdom from yet another theorist. When you understand the economics of paying people for time they are not working, maybe you will change your opinion. Typically, companies presently pay around 20 days per annum, PLUS Bank Holidays. Some do not. Forcing them to do so would increase that financial commitment by nearly 50%.

Incidentally, some businesses build "communities" not just to be altruistic, but because it benefits the BUSINESS in many ways.

And so I repeat my suggestion that your narrow-minded attitude is the very same as that which caused excessive Trade Union power and led to excessive power of the workforce over their management, thereby practically wrecking Great Britain Ltd in the 1970s. I do so hope that your much-vaunted senior management positions have never placed you in a position quite senior enough to have had any more than a local impact in setting the workplace relations clock back 30 years. I'm certainly glad that I didn't work for the world's 178th biggest company at the same time as you.

Incidentally, you are quite right, not only did the great altruists of the 19th century wish to use their own success to better the lives of their employees, they also realised that happy, well cared-for staff are also more productive staff. Good working conditions and benefits do indeed benefit the BUSINESS in many ways. So I find it all the more puzzling that you kick against the idea of 28 days paid holiday as if it were a nuclear bomb dropped on your profit margin. Again I say, if you can't absorb a measly eight days out of a working year of something like 260 days, there is something very wrong with your business.

Some people and businesses are so short-sighted it's just as well we have a Parliament that can legislate to save them from themselves.

Originally Posted by Chris T

And so I repeat my suggestion that your narrow-minded attitude is the very same as that which caused excessive Trade Union power and led to excessive power of the workforce over their management, thereby practically wrecking Great Britain Ltd in the 1970s. I do so hope that your much-vaunted senior management positions have never placed you in a position quite senior enough to have had any more than a local impact in setting the workplace relations clock back 30 years. I'm certainly glad that I didn't work for the world's 178th biggest company at the same time as you.

Incidentally, you are quite right, not only did the great altruists of the 19th century wish to use their own success to better the lives of their employees, they also realised that happy, well cared-for staff are also more productive staff. Good working conditions and benefits do indeed benefit the BUSINESS in many ways. So I find it all the more puzzling that you kick against the idea of 28 days paid holiday as if it were a nuclear bomb dropped on your profit margin. Again I say, if you can't absorb a measly eight days out of a working year of something like 260 days, there is something very wrong with your business.

Some people and businesses are so short-sighted it's just as well we have a Parliament that can legislate to save them from themselves.

Can't rep you for another good posting..Will get back to you later..

[dilli-theclaw]

Originally Posted by Incognitas

Can't rep you for another good posting..Will get back to you later..

I will do it for you

[Stuart]

Originally Posted by Incognitas

Can't rep you for another good posting..Will get back to you later..

Repped for you and me both..

[me283]

Originally Posted by Chris T

And so I repeat my suggestion that your narrow-minded attitude is the very same as that which caused excessive Trade Union power and led to excessive power of the workforce over their management, thereby practically wrecking Great Britain Ltd in the 1970s. I do so hope that your much-vaunted senior management positions have never placed you in a position quite senior enough to have had any more than a local impact in setting the workplace relations clock back 30 years. I'm certainly glad that I didn't work for the world's 178th biggest company at the same time as you.

Incidentally, you are quite right, not only did the great altruists of the 19th century wish to use their own success to better the lives of their employees, they also realised that happy, well cared-for staff are also more productive staff. Good working conditions and benefits do indeed benefit the BUSINESS in many ways. So I find it all the more puzzling that you kick against the idea of 28 days paid holiday as if it were a nuclear bomb dropped on your profit margin. Again I say, if you can't absorb a measly eight days out of a working year of something like 260 days, there is something very wrong with your business.

Some people and businesses are so short-sighted it's just as well we have a Parliament that can legislate to save them from themselves.

LOL Like I said, not an employer then? Incidentally, my gripe is against the Government making companies grant extra paid holiday. It really isn't their place to do so. And it's not a "measly eight days", it's an EXTRA eight days in some cases. Why do you say there is something wrong with my business? Speaking as a non-employer, do you actually know what you are talking about?
__________________

Originally Posted by andyl

My thoughts exactly. People forget that some of us try to do well by working hard; then when the government decide t reward those who either don't work so hard or didn't make the same choices, you start to wonder why you bothered in the first place. Too many people in this country expect something for nothing; worse still, they get it.

Where are all these lazy people? Working in care homes? Retail? The same working conditions do and should apply to a post. If a worker is, as you suggest, lazy, then that's a management issue. It what management are paid to do - presaumably they are being lazy if they allow it? And, this is a point I've dealt with previously.

"Handed" 8 extra days? No. Given equality of entitlement? Yes.



Well they wouldn't be able to that. Employment law may have been strengthened in favour of employers, but not to the extent that existing contracts, customs and practices can be overruled.
__________________



Just like that if you will please Blackthorn. Well yes, not all of us work just for money. But we all want our holiday entitlement.[/QUOTE]

So Andy, you think there are NO lazy people in employment? That really says it all about your "everyone is nice really" approach, and "let's be kind to everyone" approach.

As for equality, presumably that's just as long as they are equal to certain people, and not others? You wouldn't want everyone to be equal to the person who gets 35 days, plus Bank Holidays, BMW and BUPA?

And by the way, your comment "...but not to the extent that existing contracts, customs and practices can be overruled..." is in fact stating exactly what the Government WILL be doing.

Originally Posted by me283

Why do you say there is something wrong with my business? Speaking as a non-employer, do you actually know what you are talking about?

Oi! Richard Branson, can we cut the "you're not an employer" stuff. Apart from being fatuous, not being an employer does not mean you can't understand the implications of this issue from both sides of the fence. And, as I pointed out, I've been an employer and I agree with Chris, so...................

So Andy, you think there are NO lazy people in employment? That really says it all about your "everyone is nice really" approach, and "let's be kind to everyone" approach.[QUOTE] No, I didn't say that. Please read my post again.

As for equality, presumably that's just as long as they are equal to certain people, and not others? You wouldn't want everyone to be equal to the person who gets 35 days, plus Bank Holidays, BMW and BUPA?

Fatuous and again dealt with quite effectively in other posts

And by the way, your comment "...but not to the extent that existing contracts, customs and practices can be overruled..." is in fact stating exactly what the Government WILL be doing.

Thatr'll be cos it's the Government and that's what they do (legislate mate).

[me283]

[QUOTE=andyl]Oi! Richard Branson, can we cut the "you're not an employer" stuff. Apart from being fatuous, not being an employer does not mean you can't understand the implications of this issue from both sides of the fence. And, as I pointed out, I've been an employer and I agree with Chris, so...................

So Andy, you think there are NO lazy people in employment? That really says it all about your "everyone is nice really" approach, and "let's be kind to everyone" approach.

No, I didn't say that. Please read my post again.

Fatuous and again dealt with quite effectively in other posts

Thatr'll be cos it's the Government and that's what they do (legislate mate).

Perhaps I would if those who don't know what they are talking about would stop pontificating... that's the type of person who has never lifted a spanner in their life but still tells the mechanic how to do their job.

And I notice you picjk and choose which laws you support... and which you are happy to see broken.