Brexit (Old)

[jonbxx]

Originally Posted by Sephiroth

I'm trying to drum into the Remainers that we should have little or no truck, and at worst resistant truck, with the way the EU is heading into federation controlled by Germany. Hegemony is the correct word and your sentence above contributes nothing other than to try and make me look foolish.

So how can Germany be stopped if this is the case? Do you believe us leaving will stop the boche in their tracks or make the jerries job easier?

[Sephiroth]

Originally Posted by jonbxx

So how can Germany be stopped if this is the case? Do you believe us leaving will stop the boche in their tracks or make the jerries job easier?

I thought that I'd made that very clear. We can't stop German hegemony. So we should leave them to it so that we are not in any way embroiled. Wee we to remain in the EU, and if it federates to any extent, I suspect there would be two tiers[ - inner (federated) and outer (Single Market & Customs Union). What would be the point of being in that group if Germany is leading the federated group? On the road to getting there, Selmayr or a similar German would be at the EC helm driving this.

Do you really want that?

[jonbxx]

Originally Posted by Sephiroth

I thought that I'd made that very clear. We can't stop German hegemony. So we should leave them to it so that we are not in any way embroiled. Wee we to remain in the EU, and if it federates to any extent, I suspect there would be two tiers[ - inner (federated) and outer (Single Market & Customs Union). What would be the point of being in that group if Germany is leading the federated group? On the road to getting there, Selmayr or a similar German would be at the EC helm driving this.

Do you really want that?

So give up and run away is the answer? Even, hypothetically, with Selmayr at the helm of the the commission, what about the Parliament and Council? There have been federal noises in the past but these have regularly been knocked back by the Council.

[Sephiroth]

Originally Posted by jonbxx

So give up and run away is the answer? Even, hypothetically, with Selmayr at the helm of the the commission, what about the Parliament and Council? There have been federal noises in the past but these have regularly been knocked back by the Council.

Why do you taint the argument that way? It's called walking away from a battle with stacked adverse odds. In reality, called a democratic vote by Referendum to leave the EU.

You are right about progress so far about federation. But now that Germany is demanding to be at the EC helm, surely we can see what is going to happen. One of their goals will be to save the Euro, which could implode if Italy goes tits up with its debt. This can only be done through fiscal integration which is then the first concrete step to federation because of the powers needed to be transferred to Brussels.

Oh - the Parliament. They want it as I've explained before because they would then trump national parliaments. They always cheer Verhofstad when he calls for federation.

Have you not thought this through properly?

[jonbxx]

Originally Posted by Sephiroth

Why do you taint the argument that way? It's called walking away from a battle with stacked adverse odds. In reality, called a democratic vote by Referendum to leave the EU.

You are right about progress so far about federation. But now that Germany is demanding to be at the EC helm, surely we can see what is going to happen. One of their goals will be to save the Euro, which could implode if Italy goes tits up with its debt. This can only be done through fiscal integration which is then the first concrete step to federation because of the powers needed to be transferred to Brussels.

Oh - the Parliament. They want it as I've explained before because they would then trump national parliaments. They always cheer Verhofstad when he calls for federation.

Have you not thought this through properly?

So walking away rather than running is the answer?

How would a nation state run the EC? The head is nominated by the Parliament and the other 27 by the council. Martin Selmayr is indeed German but he still needs to be voted in to position. The EPP seems to be the largest party but that certainly isn’t all German.

Hey, there are times when you raise things I haven’t considered which is great. It gives me the opportunity to learn new things which is always a good thing. However, you have not convinced me at all that the EU is some master plan for Germany.

[Sephiroth]

Originally Posted by jonbxx

So walking away rather than running is the answer?

How would a nation state run the EC? The head is nominated by the Parliament and the other 27 by the council. Martin Selmayr is indeed German but he still needs to be voted in to position. The EPP seems to be the largest party but that certainly isn’t all German.

Hey, there are times when you raise things I haven’t considered which is great. It gives me the opportunity to learn new things which is always a good thing. However, you have not convinced me at all that the EU is some master plan for Germany.

It needn't be Selmayr. The newspapers put an additional name (an MEP) into the frame. The fact that Merkel is trying to get a German as EC President is all the evidence one would need of continuing German hegemony.

You go slightly too far in your interpretation of my words in saying that the "EU is some master plan for Germany". Yes, slightly. But, as I've said, it's in their blood (Deutschland Ueber Alles) and their people are very content with that aspect of Germany's ecconomic success; they don't want other EU countries upsetting that.

‘Hegemony’?

‘In their blood’

‘Deutschland Uber Alles’?

I don’t think it’s the Germans who are obsessed with them ‘leading’ Europe...

[Sephiroth]

Originally Posted by Hugh

‘Hegemony’?

‘In their blood’

‘Deutschland Uber Alles’?

I don’t think it’s the Germans who are obsessed with them ‘leading’ Europe...

Someone has to point it out to you Remainers. Again, your contribution in accusing me opf obsession carries no value to the debate.

[Pierre]

Originally Posted by Hugh

It's been 73 years since the war ended - we really need to let it go.

Using the 2nd World War to pillory modern day Germans is like blaming modern day Brits for the Amritsar Massacres, the Boer concentration camps, the way we partitioned India, the Bengal Famine, and other less salubrious actions of the British Empire.

But yet we still, apparently, have to apologise for slavery and colonialism.............

Some things live long......

[Sephiroth]

Originally Posted by Hugh

‘Hegemony’?

‘In their blood’

‘Deutschland Uber Alles’?

I don’t think it’s the Germans who are obsessed with them ‘leading’ Europe...

Looks like you are sleeping on the job.

Pierre makes a valid point about our post-colonial heritage/burden. On the other hand, the UK is doing nothing, taking no steps, to control the EU bloc in any way shape or form. One of the differences between the UK and Germany.

[1andrew1]

Originally Posted by Sephiroth

Looks like you are sleeping on the job.

Pierre makes a valid point about our post-colonial heritage/burden. On the other hand, the UK is doing nothing, taking no steps, to control the EU bloc in any way shape or form. One of the differences between the UK and Germany.

I'm not sure that you'll win round fellow debaters by suggesting they're sleeping on the job.
Surely every nation in the EU advocates its own interests. No one wins all the time but the UK has been successful in terms of its EU-lite approach with no euro, no Shenzen and opt-outs in areas like the 35-hour working week.

[Sephiroth]

Originally Posted by 1andrew1

I'm not sure that you'll win round fellow debaters by suggesting they're sleeping on the job.
Surely every nation in the EU advocates its own interests. No one wins all the time but the UK has been successful in terms of its EU-lite approach with no euro, no Shenzen and opt-outs in areas like the 35-hour working week.

I don't expect to convince some contributors on German hegemony - although I don't understand how they can be in denial of the bleedin' obvious.

On your second paragraph, I agree wholeheartedly, which is why I've said that I could live with staying in the EU provided we could continue sticking it to them. But this Merkel move to get a German into the Juncker job is just too much for me. A tipping point.

The above said, I've carefully read Gove's statement in the past day or so. He said that the Chequers deal would do for now, but things might be different later. If this means that through Chequers we get some short to medium term stability while we sort ourselves out ready to take proper sovereign decisions about our future and lay the plans, then I could go along with that. We would be out on 29-Mar-19 and can plan to plough our own furrow with something in place to support matters as they stand.

Could be that May has been craftier than she has been credited, keeping cards close to her chest.

For some people, ‘the bleedin’ obvious’ is usually "things I believe that support my world-view".

Since some people don’t agree with your views on German ‘hegemony’, that may explain why it isn’t ‘bleedin’ obvious’ to them...

[Sephiroth]

Originally Posted by Hugh

For some people, ‘the bleedin’ obvious’ is usually "things I believe that support my world-view".

Since some people don’t agree with your views on German ‘hegemony’, that may explain why it isn’t ‘bleedin’ obvious’ to them...

And that is despite the carefully compiled set of facts I've patiently presented for some time in this thread. I'll summarise those again as best as I can remember without trawling through the whole thing:

1. Germany engineered the Euro's initial value for their own purposes;
2. The recent Greece business was entirely managed under German direction;
3. Germany maintains an illegal 8% surplus (3% is the limit) and are not in Court.
4. First call Juncker makes after meeting May in Downing Street is to Merkel.
5. Merkel is trying to organise a German as replacement for Juncker.
6. Germany has been the tough guy towards the UK in Brexit negotiations.

Every other country is in deficit to Germany, who obviously want to keep it that way.

Why should we part of that scheme?

[1andrew1]

So, what will happen in the next two months? Will Theresa May get a deal past Parliament (despite the maths) or will the Government fall to a General Election? Who will our Prime Minister be on 1/1/19? Will one of the initials be a J?