The gender ideology thread

[jfman]

Mod Edit (Chris): This discussion opens with a very messy split out from the Online Safety Bill thread. It is here to discuss three main strands of the so-called gender debate which tend to get lumped together under the catch-all title ‘trans rights’ (whether they ought to or not is part of the discussion).

Main issues that are on-topic for this thread:

1. Fair treatment of individuals who have a genetic disorder (especially relevant in sports, as the opening posts in this thread demonstrate)
2. Rights, freedoms and obligations of individuals who claim to ‘identify’ as a ‘gender’ other than their natural born sex
3. Medical treatment of individuals, and especially children, who may have a condition called gender dysphoria (discussion of the Cass review and its consequences for UK health policy for example).

#NoDebate is not an option. Post away.

Originally Posted by Pierre

The obvious way forward is to be a polite misogynist.

Or just claim to be a woman while doing it.

Hell they’ll even give you a gold medal for punching a few in the face.

[Stephen]

Originally Posted by jfman

Or just claim to be a woman while doing it.

Hell they’ll even give you a gold medal for punching a few in the face.

Stop talking rubbish. She is a female boxer and always has been female.

Honestly

[jfman]

Her own camp have conceded XY chromosomes, which for me certainly should preclude you from sports where there is inherent advantages to those having undergone male puberty.

How they want to identify in their day to day life, dress etc. and preferred pronouns is up to them.

I do recognise this is off topic, but to bring it on topic there’s a significant amount of online hate originates from born males identifying as female against women wanting to protect their sex based rights under the Equality Act.

Originally Posted by Stephen

Stop talking rubbish. She is a female boxer and always has been female.

Honestly

Yeah … no. Not really. You need to stop swallowing trans rights kool aid so uncritically.

It speaks volumes that the TRA have casually exploited this boxer by raising strawman arguments and deliberately misusing language in ways designed to undermine ‘female’ as a simple, clear biological category.

There is more than enough evidence in the public domain to conclude that Imane Khelif has XY chromosomes with a disorder of sexual development that results in internal testes and, critically as far as sport goes, male puberty.

There is evidence that the IOC *knew* this before the competition began and therefore they knowingly allowed someone with male physical advantage to beat up female competitors in the ring and steal the gold medal from an actual female boxer.

Khelif’s DSD quite probably did lead to an incorrect observation of sex as female at birth, leading to ‘her’ being raised as a girl. Frankly if Khelif wishes to live private life as a woman then that’s none of anyone else’s business. In this case, in particular, it isn’t even a ‘trans rights’ issue, although some similar issues are raised. The line, however, comes when the very reason female sporting categories exist is crossed in the name of ‘inclusion’. Female sporting categories exist because it is the only way of ensuring inclusion of women in physical sports they could never win if they were compelled to compete only in a male or ‘open’ category.

The IOC however seems to have become fixated on making a political statement and whatever it knew about Khelif’s physiology, it had determined it was not going to use any such information in determining qualification for the female category. The only qualification the IOC seemed interested in was what was stamped in a passport - an obvious nonsense given the number of countries that now make it increasingly easy for men to create the legal fiction that they are women.

Sex is binary and immutable, and while people may have rights to dress and act however they choose in a liberal democracy, that right does not extend to stealing the rights and opportunities of others. Someone with a disorder of sexual development deserves compassion and support but not to the extent that they are allowed to exercise unfair advantage in sport. The IOC ought to have behaved very differently and ought to be ashamed.

[Stephen]

Originally Posted by Chris

Yeah … no. Not really. You need to stop swallowing trans rights kool aid so uncritically.

It speaks volumes that the TRA have casually exploited this boxer by raising strawman arguments and deliberately misusing language in ways designed to undermine ‘female’ as a simple, clear biological category.

There is more than enough evidence in the public domain to conclude that Imane Khelif has XY chromosomes with a disorder of sexual development that results in internal testes and, critically as far as sport goes, male puberty.

There is evidence that the IOC *knew* this before the competition began and therefore they knowingly allowed someone with male physical advantage to beat up female competitors in the ring and steal the gold medal from an actual female boxer.

Khelif’s DSD quite probably did lead to an incorrect observation of sex as female at birth, leading to ‘her’ being raised as a girl. Frankly if Khelif wishes to live private life as a woman then that’s none of anyone else’s business. In this case, in particular, it isn’t even a ‘trans rights’ issue, although some similar issues are raised. The line, however, comes when the very reason female sporting categories exist is crossed in the name of ‘inclusion’. Female sporting categories exist because it is the only way of ensuring inclusion of women in physical sports they could never win if they were compelled to compete only in a male or ‘open’ category.

The IOC however seems to have become fixated on making a political statement and whatever it knew about Khelif’s physiology, it had determined it was not going to use any such information in determining qualification for the female category. The only qualification the IOC seemed interested in was what was stamped in a passport - an obvious nonsense given the number of countries that now make it increasingly easy for men to create the legal fiction that they are women.

Sex is binary and immutable, and while people may have rights to dress and act however they choose in a liberal democracy, that right does not extend to stealing the rights and opportunities of others. Someone with a disorder of sexual development deserves compassion and support but not to the extent that they are allowed to exercise unfair advantage in sport. The IOC ought to have behaved very differently and ought to be ashamed.

This has nothing to doing with drinking any kool aid as you put it just looking at the info out there and not falling for all the false allegations and hysteria over her. Yet an athlete that took part in the game raped a 12 yr old and there was hardly any outrsge over that!! .

Funny how she was boxing for 8 years winning and also loosing and there was no issues till last year. After she had beaten a Russian opponent and suddenly the IBA ran a 'test' and had an issue. A Russian led and controlled association. Being suspended by the IOC over various issues.

I mean Xy DSD aside if her testosterone levels were raised that isn't really a problem many women will have higher levels than a lot of mean that aspect isn't an issue. I mean claiming she has a male advantage when she has lost matches before and many women can indeed be stronger and more powerful than men. So trying to use that argument does really wash.

Not to mention in her home country it is illegal to be gay or trans. She was born and raised female, her family photos clearly show a little girl.

Originally Posted by Stephen

Yet an athlete that took part in the game raped a 12 yr old and there was hardly any outrsge over that

How is that relevant, did it give them a competitive advantage ?

Originally Posted by Stephen

Not to mention in her home country it is illegal to be gay or trans.

So ? Seems a good reason for them to lie about it ...

Originally Posted by Stephen

She was born and raised female, her family photos clearly show a little girl.

What does that prove. I'm sure (for example) Ellen Page was "born and raised female" - they acted in multiple female parts before messing up a season of The Umbrella Acadamy as "Elliot" page.

Originally Posted by Stephen

This has nothing to doing with drinking any kool aid as you put it just looking at the info out there and not falling for all the false allegations and hysteria over her.

And yet even the IOC had to delete a statement in which it insisted this was ‘not a DSD issue’ (Disoerder of Sexual Development) and reissue it saying it is not a ‘trans’ issue (which nobody had in fact claimed). The IOC has seen the evidence, and enough of it has become public by now. The info is out there and is plain to see, for those who aren’t ensnared by trans ideology.

Yet an athlete that took part in the game raped a 12 yr old and there was hardly any outrsge over that!! .

Are we really doing this ok, fine, point by point. And the above is what we in Scotland call whitabootery. Irrelevant to the question of Khelif’s eligibility to box in the female category.

Funny how she was boxing for 8 years winning and also loosing and there was no issues till last year. After she had beaten a Russian opponent and suddenly the IBA ran a 'test' and had an issue. A Russian led and controlled association. Being suspended by the IOC over various issues.

It is entirely possible for a bad actor to discredit their opponent by issuing facts. Yes, the Russians are proper, moustache-twirling evil. That doesn’t make Khelif an XX biological female. The published evidence says that, whatever their motives, the the WBA is telling the truth. It would be a really stupid lie because their test results exist, the IOC has seen them, Khelif’s team has seen them, and simply publishing the initial cheek swab would have been enough to disprove the WBA, had that swab rendered an XX result.

I mean Xy DSD aside if her testosterone levels were raised that isn't really a problem many women will have higher levels than a lot of mean that aspect isn't an issue.

You’re struggling now.

The normal ranges for female and male testosterone do not overlap. Not by a country mile. Females do not, ever, have ‘raised’ testosterone to the level where it is comparable to even the most testosterone-deficient male, except where serious pathology is at issue. The serious pathology in Khelif’s case is that this individual has XY chromosomes and a disorder of sexual development meaning internal testes are present. These have caused male puberty and male testosterone levels.

I mean claiming she has a male advantage when she has lost matches before and many women can indeed be stronger and more powerful than men. So trying to use that argument does really wash.

The issue is not whether Khelif is the most powerful person in any given boxing competition; it is whether it is fair for Khelif to compete.

Nicola Adams could beat me to a pulp in a boxing ring. It doesn’t make me a woman, or her a man.

Not to mention in her home country it is illegal to be gay or trans. She was born and raised female, her family photos clearly show a little girl.

Nobody has claimed Khelif is gay.
Nobody has claimed Khelif is trans.
These are strawman arguments, as you well know.

It is quite common for an individual with XY chromosomes and certain DSDs to be incorrectly observed at birth and recorded female, especially in developing nations where medical staff may lack experience of rarer conditions. It is then typical for such individuals to be raised as a girl because, until male puberty kicks in, there is no reason to think anything else. Be in no doubt, however, that Khelif, Khelif’s family, and the Algerian Olympic team, all now know exactly what's going on.

Khelif deserves compassion and understanding for what must have been a traumatic adolescence. However, that compassion does not extend to creating an unfair and possibly dangerous environment for actual female boxers in competitions.

[TheDaddy]

Originally Posted by Chris

However, that compassion does not extend to creating an unfair and possibly dangerous environment for actual female boxers in competitions.

That's my problem, this isn't running, jumping or throwing, this is dangerous enough as it is without compromising saftey further

[Pierre]

Originally Posted by Chris

And yet even the IOC had to delete a statement in which it insisted this was ‘not a DSD issue’ (Disoerder of Sexual Development) and reissue it saying it is not a ‘trans’ issue (which nobody had in fact claimed). The IOC has seen the evidence, and enough of it has become public by now. The info is out there and is plain to see, for those who aren’t ensnared by trans ideology.



Are we really doing this ok, fine, point by point. And the above is what we in Scotland call whitabootery. Irrelevant to the question of Khelif’s eligibility to box in the female category.



It is entirely possible for a bad actor to discredit their opponent by issuing facts. Yes, the Russians are proper, moustache-twirling evil. That doesn’t make Khelif an XX biological female. The published evidence says that, whatever their motives, the the WBA is telling the truth. It would be a really stupid lie because their test results exist, the IOC has seen them, Khelif’s team has seen them, and simply publishing the initial cheek swab would have been enough to disprove the WBA, had that swab rendered an XX result.



You’re struggling now.

The normal ranges for female and male testosterone do not overlap. Not by a country mile. Females do not, ever, have ‘raised’ testosterone to the level where it is comparable to even the most testosterone-deficient male, except where serious pathology is at issue. The serious pathology in Khelif’s case is that this individual has XY chromosomes and a disorder of sexual development meaning internal testes are present. These have caused male puberty and male testosterone levels.



The issue is not whether Khelif is the most powerful person in any given boxing competition; it is whether it is fair for Khelif to compete.

Nicola Adams could beat me to a pulp in a boxing ring. It doesn’t make me a woman, or her a man.



Nobody has claimed Khelif is gay.
Nobody has claimed Khelif is trans.
These are strawman arguments, as you well know.

It is quite common for an individual with XY chromosomes and certain DSDs to be incorrectly observed at birth and recorded female, especially in developing nations where medical staff may lack experience of rarer conditions. It is then typical for such individuals to be raised as a girl because, until male puberty kicks in, there is no reason to think anything else. Be in no doubt, however, that Khelif, Khelif’s family, and the Algerian Olympic team, all now know exactly what's going on.

Khelif deserves compassion and understanding for what must have been a traumatic adolescence. However, that compassion does not extend to creating an unfair and possibly dangerous environment for actual female boxers in competitions.

^^^^^^. This …..all of this.

I could’ve written it myself, probably not as eloquently.

This is not a culture war issue, it’s a fairness in sport issue, and in a contact sport a safety issue.

The IOC threshold for allowing her to compete, is what was on her passport….unbelievable.

When the IBA had already banned her.

I think some of the confusion arises because the IBA haven’t specified what the criteria were which she was banned, and in somewhat unusual circumstances.

https://www.independent.co.uk/sport/...73988ffc9005db

With roots in the 1920 Antwerp Olympic games, the IBA was at a point one of the largest governing bodies in amateur boxing. It was renamed from the AIBA in 2021, and hosts the biennial World Boxing Championships.

It was from this competition that Khelif and Yu-Ting were banned in 2023. In recent weeks, the IBA has clarified that their eligibility was decided based not on testosterone testing but a “separate and recognized test, whereby the specifics remain confidential.”

This lack of transparency has led critics to highlight allegations of corruption at senior levels of the organisation. The IBA is run by Russian president Umar Kremlev, operates largely in the country, and is backed by Russian energy corporation Gazprom.

At the 2023 World Championships, Khelif was only disqualified suddenly before her gold medal bout after defeating Russian opponent Azalia Amineva at the semi-final. Amineva’s unbeaten record was subsequently restored.

Originally Posted by Hugh

I think some of the confusion arises because the IBA haven’t specified what the criteria were which she was banned, and in somewhat unusual circumstances.

https://www.independent.co.uk/sport/...73988ffc9005db

If they followed a cheek swab with a visual exam of some kind, then that absolutely would remain confidential - just as nobody would describe the specifics of how they watched an athlete giving a urine sample (which they do).

Look … we are way, way past casting aspersions on what the WBA has said. the IOC has seen the results and could have stopped a PR disaster in its tracks, simply by saying the tests, which incidentally were handled by a CAS-approved lab, were not credible. They didn’t.

The IOC instead chose to ignore the tests and pursued eligibility criteria based on a marker in a passport. That’s a political, ideological choice.

[jfman]

The bans had the right of appeal to the Court for Arbitration for Sport and neither Khalif nor the other one took it that far. There's the obvious privacy issue that should prevent the IBA going public, while at the same time the IOC didn't seem to be using any biological criteria at all. Invoking the Russian bogey man weakened their argument in my mind.

Organisations, inside and outside sport, were very happy to take the Russian rouble to line their own pockets for two decades. Much as many are turning to Saudi money without much consideration of human rights abuses there.

In boxing the number one issue, ahead of inclusion for transgender people which the IOC process is clearly designed for, should be the safety of all competitors. Second to that is fairness. Boxing is sub divided into weight classes for these reasons. Almost every sport divides into male and female for the second reason.

[Stephen]

Originally Posted by Hugh

I think some of the confusion arises because the IBA haven’t specified what the criteria were which she was banned, and in somewhat unusual circumstances.

https://www.independent.co.uk/sport/...73988ffc9005db

Exactly. Protecting their 'perfect' Russian. I honestly doubt there is more to it than is plainly obvious.

Many have just been making things up or believing what they read on social media without all facts and information.

Originally Posted by Stephen

Exactly. Protecting their 'perfect' Russian. I honestly doubt there is more to it than is plainly obvious.

Many have just been making things up or believing what they read on social media without all facts and information.

Hi, instead of jumping on a post you agree with just to agree with it, I’d love it if you could have a go at answering some of the details I provided you above.

If you’re unable, not to worry. It just that it looks to me very much as if you copy/pasted a ton of stuff from TRA Xitter without attempting any critical understanding of it. Which would be a shame.

[Stephen]

Originally Posted by Chris

Hi, instead of jumping on a post you agree with just to agree with it, I’d love it if you could have a go at answering some of the details I provided you above.

If you’re unable, not to worry. It just that it looks to me very much as if you copy/pasted a ton of stuff from TRA Xitter without attempting any critical understanding of it. Which would be a shame.

Sorry to spoil your fun but I do not visit Twitter these days. It's a cesspit of right wing goons and misinformation.

Why would I want to respond when there are 3 or so folk waiting to pounce on anything I say and just claim I'm wrong.

Saying she is too strong to fight another woman also don't fly as she has been beaten by women previously and those who she fought and beat never claimed she was too strong or punching like a man.

So I'm not gonna off off some rumours and false info that doesn't sit right with how things have gone previously for her.