School gym forced to shut

[budwieser]

Originally Posted by Chris

It's off topic because the topic is an independent girls' school in Croydon and a gym club that uses its premises. However, let me worry about that, as I said I'm going to see if I can find a way to make a split so both discussions continue.

In the meantime, to answer your questions, there are clearly some big differences in the RE syllabus you followed and the one I followed. Age or location may be factors, or maybe you went to a church-aided school? It doesn't matter much anyway. RE is just RE, it's a lesson in school and unlikely to actually convert anyone to any particular religion in my experience. Even though one of our school's RE teachers was a URC minister ...

Regarding the number of Gods in the Christian faith, yes, there's only one. I suspect what's behind your question is a suspicion that I'm defending Muslims because I believe their religion is equally as correct as Christianity? That certainly isn't the case, anyway. Islam and Christianity make a number of claims about truth and the way to reach God that are incompatible with each other. They cannot both be right. I happen to believe that in these things, Christianity is right and Islam is wrong. However, just because I think Islam is wrong on some important issues, I don't deny Muslims the right to practice their religion and to ask to have their religious practices respected.

Crumbs, maybe we're not off topic after all!

Chris, I don`t deny anyones right to worship whatever they believe, I was just making a point about how this country has been brought up for thousands of years believing one thing and living by that and then to have another religion from another country take presedence (spelling) in our own country take over, just seems wrong. In their country we have to abide by their rules be it Islam or whatever.

---------- Post added at 19:58 ---------- Previous post was at 19:56 ----------

Originally Posted by mr,m

HARR I certainly do,but don't wish to incur the mods rath!

Speak up then, lets hear your input on this.

[Sir John Luke]

Originally Posted by budwieser

Chris, I don`t deny anyones right to worship whatever they believe, I was just making a point about how this country has been brought up for thousands of years believing one thing and living by that and then to have another religion from another country take presedence (spelling) in our own country take over, just seems wrong. In their country we have to abide by their rules be it Islam or whatever.

I seem to recall (actually, I don't literally - it was a bit before even my time) there were times when a) Catholics and b) Protestants were persecuted in this country for their beliefs (hung, drawn and quartered in fact). It's not just Christians and 'others'.

Also, I'd question the 'thousands of years'

Originally Posted by budwieser

Chris, I don`t deny anyones right to worship whatever they believe, I was just making a point about how this country has been brought up for thousands of years believing one thing and living by that and then to have another religion from another country take presedence (spelling) in our own country take over, just seems wrong. In their country we have to abide by their rules be it Islam or whatever.

I hear what you're saying. There are a number of reasons why I take a different view though.

1. I don't believe it amounts to 'taking precedence' if, on occasion, we decide to do something that accommodates someone whose religion is not Christian. Actually in the specific case in this thread, it's a private school so it's an issue between the school and its customers, who pay the bills. In many ways a simple commercial decision. I really don't think it's the major, culture-redefining issue that some are making it out to be.
2. I don't think it's fair to talk about 'their country' when referring to Muslims who were born here, and whose parents were born here. It's not 'their' country. And in any case, not all Islamic countries are equally strict. Turkey, for example, is positively laid back.
3. One of the reasons I'm so vocal about defending freedom of religious expression, and the rights of all religious people to express a view about how we live in this country, is that Christians in the UK are becoming a minority. The number of people who bolster the numbers of Christians by claiming adherence, while not actually practising, is dropping dramatically. The country as a whole is becoming agnostic, if not outright atheist. It is not a good idea at this point to be suggesting that followers of any particular religion should quiet down and let the majority get on with it.

[budwieser]

Originally Posted by Sir John Luke

I seem to recall (actually, I don't literally - it was a bit before even my time) there were times when a) Catholics and b) Protestants were persecuted in this country for their beliefs (hung, drawn and quartered in fact). It's not just Christians and 'others'.

Also, I'd question the 'thousands of years'

0 AD Makes it 2008 years old.
If i`m wrong, please correct me but i thought that was when "It all started".

Amazing how this thread has gone from "would you mind starting the gym club an hour later because some parents at this girls-only school would prefer their children not to mix with boys" to "we have no freedom of speech, we are being taken over, our Judeo-Christian beliefs are under terminal threat, etc etc"

Thank you, The Daily Express, your work here is done.........

Next imflammatory story, please........

[mr,m]

LOL, well not really a point on religion,more back on topic.A rather similar thing happened in the Southport area of Merseyside about 4 years ago.A new social housing developement was built only about 30 houses,cutting it short, about half were allocated to immigrant people. Naturally they sent their kids to the local school. Turned out that they were muslims,the population of the school (primary) was about 150,approx 15 muslim kids were enrolled. The result was unreal,they immediately demanded,and got seperate classes,one only had 2 pupils in it.The forthcoming Christmas party and play were cancelled and replaced by some bizzare festival involving the moon and stars?,they had to have their own playtimes and meal times,even a special meal was prepared for them.Soon they demanded their own private toilet and washing facilities,the council could'nt afford the alterations so they had the damn cheek to hand out letters asking for donations! Needless to say this very popular school became the worst performing in the area,no one wanted to send their kids there and within a year the reception class for newcomers was closed,meaning no more school.Within 3 years of the very few muslims attending,the school was closed,all because of the ridiculous pandering to this vehemant minority,these were only about 15 famillies,but they managed to totally ruin a pleasant area,the original new developement is now a no go area to local people. it is totally wrong that Muslims can arrive on our shores and dictate to us what happens and when,why the hell are we allowing this nonsense to happen!! BLOODY ANNOYED!

Originally Posted by budwieser

0 AD Makes it 2008 years old.
If i`m wrong, please correct me but i thought that was when "It all started".

<pedant mode on>
Most people tend to associate Christianity in the UK with the arrival of Augustine (later St Augustine ) in 597AD - so 1.5 thousand years, not "thousands"

<pedant mode off>

CHRIS i freely admit that i am intollerant of religion,any religion, and as a lay preacher i accept that you might find it hard to understand .Meanwhile back in the real world (i live in newcastle upon tyne)i am just an average bloke who goes to work in the local area which has a high population of most religions and i have witnessed first hand the prejudice and sometimes i dare to say hatred for any one who isn't muslim
i have done work in muslim houses some of which were fine and treated me with respect an equal amount have treated me with disrespect
I have also witnessed examples of sharia law,a practice amongst british muslims that at the moment is being discussed by religous groups as to whether it should be introduced into british law,i saw first hand what a hardline muslim does to their daughter if a man sees her face even if it is totaly by accident ,it wasn't pretty. I know what happens when a large group of muslims get together and presurise a local authority into closing down 12 buisness units all of which were used by small buisnesses one of which was a close friend of mine,to build a mosque with a 150ft prayer tower
so chris i apologize for not being as educated as you or maybe even not as tollerant but i live in the real world

[budwieser]

Originally Posted by Chris

I hear what you're saying. There are a number of reasons why I take a different view though.

1. I don't believe it amounts to 'taking precedence' if, on occasion, we decide to do something that accommodates someone whose religion is not Christian. Actually in the specific case in this thread, it's a private school so it's an issue between the school and its customers, who pay the bills. In many ways a simple commercial decision. I really don't think it's the major, culture-redefining issue that some are making it out to be.
2. I don't think it's fair to talk about 'their country' when referring to Muslims who were born here, and whose parents were born here. It's not 'their' country. And in any case, not all Islamic countries are equally strict. Turkey, for example, is positively laid back.
3. One of the reasons I'm so vocal about defending freedom of religious expression, and the rights of all religious people to express a view about how we live in this country, is that Christians in the UK are becoming a minority. The number of people who bolster the numbers of Christians by claiming adherence, while not actually practising, is dropping dramatically. The country as a whole is becoming agnostic, if not outright atheist. It is not a good idea at this point to be suggesting that followers of any particular religion should quiet down and let the majority get on with it.

I think you`re right about the numbers of people taking a different line on Religion Chris.
I might as well just shut the **** up and keep my own beliefs to myself.
Thanks for the discussion though, nice to see other peoples points. Cheers.

---------- Post added at 20:35 ---------- Previous post was at 20:34 ----------

Originally Posted by foreverwar

<pedant mode on>
Most people tend to associate Christianity in the UK with the arrival of Augustine (later St Augustine ) in 597AD - so 1.5 thousand years, not "thousands"

<pedant mode off>

Ok, Thanks for that mate.

[mr,m]

Originally Posted by martyh

CHRIS i freely admit that i am intollerant of religion,any religion, and as a lay preacher i accept that you might find it hard to understand .Meanwhile back in the real world (i live in newcastle upon tyne)i am just an average bloke who goes to work in the local area which has a high population of most religions and i have witnessed first hand the prejudice and sometimes i dare to say hatred for any one who isn't muslim
i have done work in muslim houses some of which were fine and treated me with respect an equal amount have treated me with disrespect
I have also witnessed examples of sharia law,a practice amongst british muslims that at the moment is being discussed by religous groups as to whether it should be introduced into british law,i saw first hand what a hardline muslim does to their daughter if a man sees her face even if it is totaly by accident ,it wasn't pretty. I know what happens when a large group of muslims get together and presurise a local authority into closing down 12 buisness units all of which were used by small buisnesses one of which was a close friend of mine,to build a mosque with a 150ft prayer tower
so chris i apologize for not being as educated as you or maybe even not as tollerant but i live in the real world

Originally Posted by foreverwar

Amazing how this thread has gone from "would you mind starting the gym club an hour later because some parents at this girls-only school would prefer their children not to mix with boys" to "we have no freedom of speech, we are being taken over, our Judeo-Christian beliefs are under terminal threat, etc etc"

Thank you, The Daily Express, your work here is done.........

Next imflammatory story, please........

least not that many of us think its a certain newspaper out to get us

Originally Posted by martyh

CHRIS i freely admit that i am intollerant of religion,any religion, and as a lay preacher i accept that you might find it hard to understand .Meanwhile back in the real world (i live in newcastle upon tyne)i am just an average bloke who goes to work in the local area which has a high population of most religions and i have witnessed first hand the prejudice and sometimes i dare to say hatred for any one who isn't muslim
i have done work in muslim houses some of which were fine and treated me with respect an equal amount have treated me with disrespect
I have also witnessed examples of sharia law,a practice amongst british muslims that at the moment is being discussed by religous groups as to whether it should be introduced into british law,i saw first hand what a hardline muslim does to their daughter if a man sees her face even if it is totaly by accident ,it wasn't pretty. I know what happens when a large group of muslims get together and presurise a local authority into closing down 12 buisness units all of which were used by small buisnesses one of which was a close friend of mine,to build a mosque with a 150ft prayer tower
so chris i apologize for not being as educated as you or maybe even not as tollerant but i live in the real world

Well I know someone who lives in the back streets of Newcastle and their experiences of the local differing religious communities is entirely more positive than that.

In fact it's the local Muslim neighbours who are taking care of my OP sister and brother-in-law by chasing off the local yobs and would be car thieves and helping to repair any vandalism in the area.The street is a mixture of differing ethnic groupings who all know each other and support each other...

[Sir John Luke]

Don't somehow think it's 'us' certain newspapers are out to 'get'.

Originally Posted by zinglebarb

least not that many of us think its a certain newspaper out to get us

Trust me, it's not me they're "out to get"........

This thread is a perfect example (imho) of how something can be blown out of all proportion, when the all the facts are either not known or slanted a certain way, to inflame fear, xenophobia, and uncertainty.

Originally Posted by Maggy J

Well I know someone who lives in the back streets of Newcastle and their experiences of the local differing religious communities is entirely more positive than that.

In fact it's the local Muslim neighbours who are taking care of my OP sister and brother-in-law by chasing off the local yobs and would be car thieves and helping to repair any vandalism in the area.The street is a mixture of differing ethnic groupings who all know each other and support each other...

yes maggie,as i stated i also know and have done work for lots of really pleasant muslims whom i have alot of respect for as people.One particular muslim i worked for for 5 years .He came to this country in 1962 and started selling ties door to door now he is or was(not sure if he retired) one of the biggest private landlords to students in the west end .He is deeply religious and went to mosque every friday afternoon but would never condone the actions of some of the modern hard line muslims in the area

i should mention that if my previous post gave the appearance that newcastles's muslim community is hardline activists they are not i simply quoted a few personal negative examples for chris's benifit