Vote 2005, week 2, new poll!

£4000 is a very cheap loan.

Anyhoo, how do you think the goverment should pay for education at University?
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The immigration issue comes up again, is there anything else to talk about in the election?

http://news.independent.co.uk/uk/pol...p?story=629895

[greencreeper]

I still won't be voting - would take a major change in UK politics for that to happen.

Student loans...

I took out around £4100 each year for three years, and about £2000 (I think) for my placement year, plus an overdraft of £1800 and top up hardship loans of £300 for two of the years I was at Uni, plus the £1000 my parents lent me, comes to about £17,000 of debt.

When I applied for a student loan, I had a tough time proving that I was independant of my parents - without independant status, I wouldn't have been able to go to Uni. The application process is hard, and the hardship loan criteria even tougher.

I've not started paying back any of my debt other than the overdraft, which the bank reduces each year. It's currently at £1250. The student loan repayment threshold has been increased to £15,000 , which means I won't be paying it back any time soon.

I'd like to see the student loan scrapped, but the problem is that the Government intends everyone, chavs and all, to have a degree, which ironically means that degrees will become worthless within the next decade and the earning potential of people with degrees will be much lower (thus less likely to pay off the loan). If you scrap the loan and replace it with a grant, it will just encourage the chavs et al, who should never go near a University let alone study at one, to apply to University.

Originally Posted by greencreeper

<snipped>
I'd like to see the student loan scrapped, but the problem is that the Government intends everyone, chavs and all, to have a degree, which ironically means that degrees will become worthless within the next decade and the earning potential of people with degrees will be much lower (thus less likely to pay off the loan). If you scrap the loan and replace it with a grant, it will just encourage the chavs et al, who should never go near a University let alone study at one, to apply to University.

So do us all a favour and help vote out a Party whose instinct is to perform social levelling by reducing everyone and everything to the lowest common denominator!

[punky]

Originally Posted by greencreeper

comes to about £17,000 of debt.

Do you think that the government could afford to give you £17,000 as a grant? And everyone else?

I had to get a student loan like everyone else. I'll pay it back eventually. The government subsiseds part of my University education, but it can't pay for it all.

[Shaun]

Originally Posted by Chris T

So do us all a favour and help vote out a Party whose instinct is to perform social levelling by reducing everyone and everything to the lowest common denominator!

Can someone check the IP of that post as I think someones's hacked Towny's account. Can't think he'd hit that far below the belt!

This is quite simple. University is expensive. Education should have the most moneuy spent on it but theres no way a party can scrap fees and keep education at the same level with the same students.

The debate is not on if student fees should exist, they have too. Labour would not put top fees for kicks, it loses them votes. The issue is if the uni fees are paid though higher loan rates, top up fees, or taxs.
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Originally Posted by Chris T

So do us all a favour and help vote out a Party whose instinct is to perform social levelling by reducing everyone and everything to the lowest common denominator!

and instead vote in a party which appeals to the lowest common denominator? The torys have been attacking immigration hard over this election. With labour polling better on health and education the torys have been making immgration and waste at the heart of there election. I have not seen the facts on waste so cant comment.

Do you really think these comments are based on a big problem? Or are they playing on fear and hate? By the way, my mums techincally a immigrant (french). But its not her people have a problem with, no one cares about Irish, french, german, and american immigrants. When people think of immgration they think of middle-easten/arab/easten european people. Why is that?

[greencreeper]

Originally Posted by Chris T

So do us all a favour and help vote out a Party whose instinct is to perform social levelling by reducing everyone and everything to the lowest common denominator!

By voting them out I have to vote a party in - there aren't any I would choose. Forget the campaigns - that's all ********. Always has been, always will be. Empty promises. Look at history - at what each party has done over the years. Then vote. That's why I won't be voting. Thatcher wrecked the country - wrecked my life by introducing s28, which is still enforced today. Lib Dems - can't recall anything they've ever done, but they've never had power in my lifetime.

Originally Posted by punky

Do you think that the government could afford to give you £17,000 as a grant? And everyone else?

Yes. What do you do when you leave University? You work - i.e. you contribute to the economy and the growth of the country, and you pay taxes. For around forty years.

Originally Posted by greencreeper

Thatcher wrecked the country - wrecked my life by introducing s28, which is still enforced today.

What is s28? Is that the ban on teaching about homosexuals in classrooms? Sorry, I am not sure what s28 is?
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The best reason for tax payers to fund uni fees is that they will hellp the country. A more educated workforce is better for business in this country and eventually the marketplace may require more and more workers of this level. Also in a more direct way University educated students help, doctors, enginners, designers, and alll the other jobs that are behind day to day living that go unnoticed. Goverment jobs, tech, protection etc etc.

[Shaun]

Originally Posted by Damien

What is s28? Is that the ban on teaching about homosexuals in classrooms? Sorry, I am not sure what s28 is?

Basically it bans teachers from talking about homosexuality in class unless they are asked. (coggy my correct me but thats my understanding)

If Tony gets in again, there'll be a letter on his desk from me asking about the repealing of that law next (political)term!
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al la : http://www.galha.org/glh/section28.html

[punky]

Originally Posted by greencreeper

Yes. What do you do when you leave University? You work - i.e. you contribute to the economy and the growth of the country, and you pay taxes. For around forty years.

Yeah, but that goes towards everything else. With all that money, they still barely give us anything with decent public services.

Originally Posted by Shaun

Basically it bans teachers from talking about homosexuality in class unless they are asked. (coggy my correct me but thats my understanding)

If Tony gets in again, there'll be a letter on his desk from me asking about the repealing of that law next (political)term!
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al la : http://www.galha.org/glh/section28.html

They would have done it by now if it was simple, whos blocking it? What are the political costs of removing it? In other words, why hasnt anything been done These issues always get complex

[Tezcatlipoca]

Originally Posted by Shaun

Basically it bans teachers from talking about homosexuality in class unless they are asked. (coggy my correct me but thats my understanding)

If Tony gets in again, there'll be a letter on his desk from me asking about the repealing of that law next (political)term!
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al la : http://www.galha.org/glh/section28.html

The link you've given says it's already been repealed

Section 2A (still popularly known as Section 28) was repealed in Scotland in 2000 but remained in force in England and Wales for another three years. It was finally repealed with effect from 18 November 2003 by Section 122 of the Local Goverment Act 2003, which was enacted on 18 September 2003.

[Shaun]

Originally Posted by punky

Yeah, but that goes towards everything else. With all that money, they still barely give us anything with decent public services.

After 18 years of neglect can you blame them?
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Originally Posted by Matt D

The link you've given says it's already been repealed

You may be right, that was a quick Goggle on it, but my understanding ( and I guess GC's otherwise he wouldn't have mentioned it) was that it was still in force (or farce, depends how you view it ).

The public service issue depends where you are. I know many people who have said for them the NHS is better but they are not sure about everywhere else. Mine has certainly improved, while a family friend who visits quite often over the past 12 years said that in the last 5 years he has had much better service.

Not sure about everywhere else but theres a few that are good

[greencreeper]

Originally Posted by Shaun

You may be right, that was a quick Goggle on it, but my understanding ( and I guess GC's otherwise he wouldn't have mentioned it) was that it was still in force (or farce, depends how you view it ).

s28 has been repealed - but it's still in force.

When s28 first came onto the Statue books, Councils reacted with fear and went way too far. Anything that might be remotely considered to be "promoting homosexuality" had funding withdrawn (effectively banned). It even extended to lists of gay organisations and groups been removed incase this was seen to be "promoting homosexuality". The law has gone - attitudes and policies remain. It highlights the interplay between law and societal values: does the law define our values, or do are values define the law?

You also have the scourge that is the PTA, which keeps schools frightened of discussing homosexuality in sex education.

I think it's upto the gay kids in schools now to push for change - and they are doing. They have more of a voice now then ever before.