Israel, Hamas, Hezbollah, Iran … War

[OLD BOY]

Originally Posted by jfman

Considering Palestinians are being killed every day at the hands of the Jewish state I find this baseless claim, and the entire basis for it, absurd.

The reason that is absurd is that the reason for Israel’s killing of Palestinians is the persistent aggression of Hamas, who have been lopping rockets into Israel over many years, with occasional acts of additional barbarity as happened in October. They don’t want to negotiate, they sabotaged the peace talks, but you blame Israel. Priceless!

Without those terrorist monsters, there is no reason why a two-state solution wouldn’t work, and even total integration with free movement between the two states once trust was restored. That of course, would take many years.

Israel doesn’t want this war or the constant insecurity it has been putting up with all this time. This is down to Hamas, no-one else.

[jfman]

Originally Posted by OLD BOY

The reason that is absurd is that the reason for Israel’s killing of Palestinians is the persistent aggression of Hamas, who have been lopping rockets into Israel over many years, with occasional acts of additional barbarity as happened in October. They don’t want to negotiate, they sabotaged the peace talks, but you blame Israel. Priceless!

Without those terrorist monsters, there is no reason why a two-state solution wouldn’t work, and even total integration with free movement between the two states once trust was restored. That of course, would take many years.

Israel doesn’t want this war or the constant insecurity it has been putting up with all this time. This is down to Hamas, no-one else.

The “persistent aggression” of Hamas that kills substantially less civilians than Israel do.

Israel absolutely want this war. If they didn’t it would simply cease, Israel would secure its borders and its population for the most part safe. All of which are circumstances Israel are denying the Palestinian population of Gaza as they rain down bombs on civilian areas, destroy it’s civilian infrastructure, it’s mosques, it’s hospitals, it’s universities and everything a society is built upon.

[OLD BOY]

Originally Posted by jfman

The “persistent aggression” of Hamas that kills substantially less civilians than Israel do.

Israel absolutely want this war. If they didn’t it would simply cease, Israel would secure its borders and its population for the most part safe. All of which are circumstances Israel are denying the Palestinian population of Gaza as they rain down bombs on civilian areas, destroy it’s civilian infrastructure, it’s mosques, it’s hospitals, it’s universities and everything a society is built upon.

Don’t be daft. Do you really believe that, or are you just being provocative?

[Sephiroth]

Originally Posted by jfman

The “persistent aggression” of Hamas that kills substantially less civilians than Israel do.

Israel absolutely want this war. If they didn’t it would simply cease, Israel would secure its borders and its population for the most part safe. All of which are circumstances Israel are denying the Palestinian population of Gaza as they rain down bombs on civilian areas, destroy it’s civilian infrastructure, it’s mosques, it’s hospitals, it’s universities and everything a society is built upon.

Hamas should have thought of that before they so brutally murdered 1200 Israelis. Oh, sorry - Hamas don't care what happens to their civilians.

[jfman]

Originally Posted by OLD BOY

Don’t be daft. Do you really believe that, or are you just being provocative?

There's nothing daft about pointing out that Israel, in the absence of clearly defined military objectives are taking the opportunity to decimate Gaza, largely killing thousands of women and children in the process, destroying infrastructure, homes, mosques, hospitals.

It's observable reality.

---------- Post added at 20:07 ---------- Previous post was at 20:06 ----------

Originally Posted by Sephiroth

Hamas should have thought of that before they so brutally murdered 1200 Israelis. Oh, sorry - Hamas don't care what happens to their civilians.

The entirety of the population of Gaza don't deserve everything they have destroyed on this basis.

Israel by any measure over any time period kill substantially more Palestinian civilians than Hamas do Israeli ones.

[OLD BOY]

Originally Posted by jfman

There's nothing daft about pointing out that Israel, in the absence of clearly defined military objectives are taking the opportunity to decimate Gaza, largely killing thousands of women and children in the process, destroying infrastructure, homes, mosques, hospitals.

It's observable reality.

---------- Post added at 20:07 ---------- Previous post was at 20:06 ----------



The entirety of the population of Gaza don't deserve everything they have destroyed on this basis.

Israel by any measure over any time period kill substantially more Palestinian civilians than Hamas do Israeli ones.

You are judging this on the basis of seeing the situation as a numbers game.

This is ridiculous. You can blame Hamas for the high casualty rate. They are the cowards protecting themselves with human shields.

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-middle-east-67629181

These are the people you are defending.

[jfman]

Originally Posted by OLD BOY

You are judging this on the basis of seeing the situation as a numbers game.

This is ridiculous. You can blame Hamas for the high casualty rate. They are the cowards protecting themselves with human shields.

There’s no evidence that they are actively using human shields, it’s merely a lazy trope by the IDF to justify razing entire civilian areas to the ground.

You stated position that Palestinians can “suck it up” has already clearly demonstrated you don’t value Palestinian civilian life, as has the tedious tour of the 2006 Palestinian elections, so forgive me for considering your input of extremely low value and clouded by your own prejudices.

---------- Post added at 20:22 ---------- Previous post was at 20:20 ----------

Originally Posted by OLD BOY

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-middle-east-67629181

These are the people you are defending.

That’s an outright disgusting and contemptible lie to accuse me of defending Hamas. Clear evidence that you are clutching at desperation to justify your own clearly stated view that the Palestinian civilians, women and children, do not deserve safety in their own land.

I repeat - once again - nobody will find a single post where I do.

https://www.washingtonpost.com/world...ies-dead-nasr/

These are the people you ARE defending. Do these babies not deserve a life merely because they are Palestinian?

[Pierre]

Originally Posted by jfman

Israel absolutely want this war.

No they don’t, Iran wanted the war because Israeli relations with other influential Arab states, via the Abraham accords and other bi-lateral agreements, were becoming normalised.

Saudi Arabia was about to join in with these states.

Israel’s government had relaxed its vigilance (something it would live to regret)

Iran funds Hamas, Hezbollah and probably several other jihadist groups.

If they didn’t it would simply cease,

. Until the next time, Israel is trying to make sure there is not a next time. How successful that will be will remain to be seen

Israel would secure its borders and its population for the most part safe.

That’s a measure unacceptable to Israel

All of which are circumstances Israel are denying the Palestinian population of Gaza as they rain down bombs on civilian areas, destroy it’s civilian infrastructure, it’s mosques, it’s hospitals, it’s universities and everything a society is built upon.

It’s very sad, Israel would argue that it’s unfortunate collateral damage and casualties of war. Civilian casualties, destruction of civilian infrastructure is a consequence of every war that’s ever been fought. I don’t understand why everyone thinks this one should/will be any different.

[jfman]

Originally Posted by Pierre

No they don’t, Iran wanted the war because Israeli relations with other influential Arab states, via the Abraham accords and other bi-lateral agreements, were becoming normalised.

Saudi Arabia was about to join in with these states.

Israel’s government had relaxed its vigilance (something it would live to regret)

Iran funds Hamas, Hezbollah and probably several other jihadist groups.

. Until the next time, Israel is trying to make sure there is not a next time. How successful that will be will remain to be seen

There will always be a next time for an Israeli state that massacres Palestinian civilians.

That’s a measure unacceptable to Israel

It’s very sad, Israel would argue that it’s unfortunate collateral damage and casualties of war. Civilian casualties, destruction of civilian infrastructure is a consequence of every war that’s ever been fought. I don’t understand why everyone thinks this one should/will be any different.

I’m sure future generations of Palestinians, and the wider Arab world, will accept its “very sad” and just move on. If civilians are fair game for one they are fair game for all. A consequence of every war that’s ever been faught. I don’t understand why everyone thinks this one should/will be any different.

[Pierre]

Originally Posted by jfman

There will always be a next time for an Israeli state that massacres Palestinian civilians.

There will always be a next time for a defacto Palestinian state that massacres Israeli civilians.

I’m sure future generations of Palestinians, and the wider Arab world, will accept its “very sad” and just move on. If civilians are fair game for one they are fair game for all. A consequence of every war that’s ever been faught. I don’t understand why everyone thinks this one should/will be any different.

Well every other nation that’s been in a war has.

Why do you think this war should be played by other rules than any other war in history?

[jfman]

Originally Posted by Pierre

There will always be a next time for a defacto Palestinian state that massacres Israeli civilians.

Well every other nation that’s been in a war has.

Why do you think this war should be played by other rules than any other war in history?

This isn’t a war in any meaningful sense, it’s a massacre until Israel gets bored of it or America tells them to stop. Palestinian civilians are, broadly, defenceless. For those that haven’t been killed many have already lost everything they have, and there will be no meaningful reconstructions afterwards. Economies take generations to recover from the kinds of damage that have been undertaken to date. Is that a punishment on hundreds of thousands a price worth paying for a security that will never exist?

I don’t think this war should be “played by different rules”. I think it should stop. It doesn’t make Israel, its allies, or Jewish communities around the world any safer the longer it continues.

[nomadking]

So where are these "out in the open" targets that the IDF can attack? Are the IDF still being shot at, and where are they being shot at from? The Hamas terrorists are somewhere, so where else are they?

[jfman]

Originally Posted by nomadking

So where are these "out in the open" targets that the IDF can attack? Are the IDF still being shot at, and where are they being shot at from? The Hamas terrorists are somewhere, so where else are they?

Considering they’ve bombed over 12,000 (presumably favoured) targets, killing almost as many women and children, they could just call it a day rather than continue pretending that eliminating every single Hamas militant is a realistic goal.

It’s unsurprising that the IDF are being shot at in Gaza given they’ve reduced much of it to rubble. Populations you attempt to bomb out of existence rarely welcome occupiers with open arms.

[nomadking]

Originally Posted by jfman

Considering they’ve bombed over 12,000 (presumably favoured) targets, killing almost as many women and children, they could just call it a day rather than continue pretending that eliminating every single Hamas militant is a realistic goal.

It’s unsurprising that the IDF are being shot at in Gaza given they’ve reduced much of it to rubble. Populations you attempt to bomb out of existence rarely welcome occupiers with open arms.

If there are Hamas terrorists shooting back, the job isn't finished. Basic rule of war, it's only over when you're not being shot at.
Are Hamas fighting out in the open? Yes or No? Did they invade and attack Israel? Yes or No? If Hamas didn't continually attack Israel, would this be going on? Yes or No?

[Pierre]

Originally Posted by jfman

This isn’t a war in any meaningful sense, it’s a massacre until Israel gets bored of it

The military arm of the government of a defacto Palestinian state attacked Israel, Israel in return declared war against that government and defacto Palestinian state.

This is a war.

The parallels to this action an Afghanistan are almost identical. Unless you think Afghanistan wasn’t a war in any meaningful sense.

Palestinian civilians are, broadly, defenceless.

That’s pretty much priced in with the term Civillian.

For those that haven’t been killed many have already lost everything they have

That tends to be what happens to civilians unfortunately caught up in war zones

and there will be no meaningful reconstructions afterwards.

that remains to be seen

Economies take generations to recover from the kinds of damage that have been undertaken to date.

Yes, as did ours.

Is that a punishment on hundreds of thousands a price worth paying for a security that will never exist?

At least you admit here that the region just won’t tolerate Israel’s right to exist, and therefore Israel is right to take whatever steps necessary to ensure it’s security.

I don’t think this war should be “played by different rules”. I think it should stop. It doesn’t make Israel, its allies, or Jewish communities around the world any safer the longer it continues.

As previous answer……just curious, what would make it safer?


I disagree with that last paragraph for what it’s worth. What the West has seemed to have forgotten is that it is not diplomacy that keeps the peace, it is strength and power. Show weakness and you will be attacked by opportunists. Examples of this are many fold, throughout history.

Israel, and certainly not Netanyahu, cannot afford to look weak ever again.