2 Police Officers shot and killed in Manchester

Please let's not argue..Two people are dead who should not be and us ranting about whether to arm the police and that if they had been armed they might still be alive is not going to bring them back.

RIP and my condolences to the families.








I'm not saying there shouldn't be a discussion about arming the police just that it might be nice to address it in another thread.

Absolutely true - my apologies....

[Will21st]

Originally Posted by Hugh

Strange - in all the years I lived and worked in Germany, I never heard of this....

I've lived and worked in Germany for 25 years and have seen a burglary in progress while working as a night porter at a hotel.I called the police.They drew their guns after climbing the roof of the property next door and shouted:'Police,come out with your hands in the air',or words to that effect.

What is your position on the issue,Hugh?
Ever felt threatened by german police? I always found them to be friendly but firm. I have seen them draw guns on suspects and never felt uneasy... I was happy to see armed cops that evening at the hotel.

---------- Post added at 20:03 ---------- Previous post was at 20:00 ----------

Originally Posted by Hugh

The German statistics seem to disagree with you...

Link

No,they don't. Those warning shots will have prevented perps from acting out. Firearms work and have an effect.Just drawing will have an effect.

---------- Post added at 20:05 ---------- Previous post was at 20:03 ----------

Originally Posted by Maggy J

Please let's not argue..Two people are dead who should not be and us ranting about whether to arm the police and that if they had been armed they might still be alive is not going to bring them back.

RIP and my condolences to the families.








I'm not saying there shouldn't be a discussion about arming the police just that it might be nice to address it in another thread.

Ok.

[Russ]

Did arming police in N Ireland have an impact of reducing attacks on officers? (not sarcasm/rhetoric - serious question)

[Derek]

Originally Posted by Russ

Did arming police in N Ireland have an impact of reducing attacks on officers? (not sarcasm/rhetoric - serious question)

I would say so. The figures aren't exact but comparing two roughly similar sized forces (PSNI and Strathclyde) in an average year Strathclyde has 4000 assaults on officers and the PSNI has 3000, which will include the annual marching, rioting season and terrorist attacks.

---------- Post added at 09:51 ---------- Previous post was at 09:50 ----------

Each year around 3,000 officers are assaulted to some degree, in the execution of their duty.

http://www.policefed-ni.org.uk/Speec...-2012-(1).aspx

---------- Post added at 09:52 ---------- Previous post was at 09:51 ----------

An average of 4,000 officers have been assaulted each year during the last four years and assaults are on the increase, Strathclyde Police said.

http://www.granthamjournal.co.uk/new...asers-1-271466

[Vieil Homme]

Regarding the issue of arming all police officers it would be wrong as from inception, the police have not been armed. The day every officer in the UK mainland is armed policing will no longer be by consent as laid down by Robert Peel. While I'm not privy of the amount of armed police, there are more than you think.

I don't think even if the two officers were armed the outcome would have been any different as Gregan had a stock of russian made grenades which he did use on the day.

It turns out that Dale Cregan 29 was on Police bail from June, he had been charged for a pub shooting where he had gone to kneecap a gang member, but it had gone wrong when the intended victim was hit in the neck.

The system is wrong to allow a person who has been charged with a firearms offence. They should never be given bail, he should have been kept on remand until he was either cleared or sentenced for that offence.

It would seem that Facebook has again been used for offensive remarks.

looking through this thread i am left wondering how the arming of these two officers would have helped obviously the guy had a gun but he also had a grenade.

There was an american lady on sky newspaper review last night who said she would hate to see routine arming in this country as evidence from her own country seemed to suggest it would just ramp the violence upward.

On a different note it was very poignant to see the two rainbows over the house last night i thought of those two officers and the muderer who lured them there and felt very sad.

[MovedGoalPosts]

Firstly, RIP to the officers.

I too have to question whether routing arming of the police could have prevented these murders. I doubt it. If they were lured to the property, on which the police say they had no prior intelligence, it seems to me that the offender always had an intention to kill. All that might have changed with routine arming, is for the murders to become "suicide by cop"

Originally Posted by Will21st

I've lived and worked in Germany for 25 years and have seen a burglary in progress while working as a night porter at a hotel.I called the police.They drew their guns after climbing the roof of the property next door and shouted:'Police,come out with your hands in the air',or words to that effect

"Polizei, kommen mit den Händen in der Luft" ... or something.

What you're describing here serves to underscore the fundamental difference between policing in the UK and just about everywhere else.

If you advocate a similar approach by British police, then you're calling for far more than simply allowing them to wear a side arm as a matter of routine. You're calling for a serious shift in the rules governing the use of police firearms, and that in turn calls for a shift in the relationship between the police and the public.

AFAIK at present firearms are not deployed unless there's a reasonable suspicion that the suspect is armed. It's the same basic principle of meeting force with comparable force that allows a British homeowner to blow a burglar's head off with his own shotgun. It's the same because Peel's of model of policing by consent, with the police officer simply a uniformed civilian with few powers over and above those of anyone else. Allowing police officers to draw a firearm without any cause other than to force compliance on a suspect puts things on a totally different footing.

In many other places policing is a paramilitary operation. It's not uncommon to see police officers in Europe routinely dressed in the sort of gear you don't see in the UK unless there's a full-scale riot in progress. I don't think we need to create that kind of separation between those of us who wear a uniform and those of us who don't.

Originally Posted by Derek

Balls. Do all petty criminals carry a knife or baseball bat now? Does every petty criminal in Northern Ireland carry a gun?

99.99% of the time the Police will never need to use or draw it but for that 1 times you need it it's better the Police have a gun rather than end up dead in the street.

Gun crime will increase more Police officers will die in the line of duty if they all carry guns , It does not take a genius to see that surely?

Guns would not have saved these offices and if they were armed there is a good chance 2 guns would have ended up in the criminal underworld

Look at America in some states everyone has a gun do the Police carrying guns stop crime? No and look at Texas they have the Death Penalty they love using it yet still there are murders

Also look at what happened recently where 1 man killed another then a Police officer killed innocents.

I do not think all the Police should be armed no way no how

---------- Post added at 10:50 ---------- Previous post was at 10:44 ----------

Originally Posted by Sirius

So would you if you was a copper be willing to face a ******* armed with a

Knife
axe
samurai sword
Gun

and have nothing to defend yourself with other than a bloody stick and some pepper spray, i know i would not ???

not many carry guns due to the heavy penalty in getting caught with one. If they thought there was a good chance of being faced with someone with a gun that will change. Some criminals really do not care and getting a gun is not hard not that I have tried

As for the majority of Police work they are trained to defend against the knife if attacked with an axe or sword the just keep your or a car between you and the assailant while you call for back up

Originally Posted by Will21st

I've lived and worked in Germany for 25 years and have seen a burglary in progress while working as a night porter at a hotel.I called the police.They drew their guns after climbing the roof of the property next door and shouted:'Police,come out with your hands in the air',or words to that effect.

What is your position on the issue,Hugh?
Ever felt threatened by german police? I always found them to be friendly but firm. I have seen them draw guns on suspects and never felt uneasy... I was happy to see armed cops that evening at the hotel.

---------- Post added at 20:03 ---------- Previous post was at 20:00 ----------



No,they don't. Those warning shots will have prevented perps from acting out. Firearms work and have an effect.Just drawing will have an effect.

---------- Post added at 20:05 ---------- Previous post was at 20:03 ----------



Ok.

What warning shots? "Warning shots" and "shooting someone in the arm to disable them" only happens in films/tv, not in real life - when trained with firearms, you are trained to hit the biggest target (the trunk) with at least two rounds.

If you fire a "warning shot", where do you think the bullet goes? Fire it into the air, our friend gravity will bring it back down on to someone/something; fire it into a wall/the ground, it will ricochet.

[Arthurgray50@blu]

Everyone is going off the main question here.

The two officers went to a normal call of burglary, checks that were carried out and it was normal, what has happened is that *******s have brought officers to an address, this evil ******* and come out into the street and in cold blooded murder has shot two defenceless officers.

They probably pressed there emergency button, BUT these brave officers were shot dead by a callour killer, who should hang.

The police forces in the UK have tactical armed units that would have gone there first, if this address had been known for weapons.

The people that have help this evil monster should also stand trial for murder as they are as guilty as the main man.

As, to arm the police services in the UK, would not happen, all forces have a well trained armed response teams that deal with this sort of crime - but they have to get the information first.

This thread is about the two police officers shot dead, NOT about wether police officers should be armed - well they are- there called rapid response unites.

[danielf]

Originally Posted by Hugh

What warning shots? "Warning shots" and "shooting someone in the arm to disable them" only happens in films/tv, not in real life - when trained with firearms, you are trained to hit the biggest target (the trunk) with at least two rounds.

If you fire a "warning shot", where do you think the bullet goes? Fire it into the air, our friend gravity will bring it back down on to someone/something; fire it into a wall/the ground, it will ricochet.

Presumably, those warning shots will be the ones mentioned in the link you posted earlier:

Originally Posted by Hugh

The German statistics seem to disagree with you...

Link

German cops fired only 85 bullets in 2011, and 49 of those were warning shots. Of the 36 shots fired at suspects, 15 people were injured and 6 were killed

[Sparkle]

These police women were ambushed, there is no need for a "lets give bobbies guns" knee jerk reaction, as if it would have made any difference whatsoever.
Only a fool would actually believe that possessing a gun makes someone impervious to being ambushed.

Its incredible the number of US police killed each year, despite them being armed:
http://www.odmp.org/search/year

Remember that many of the police shot in the US will have been shot with their own firearm. From 2000 through to 2010, 511 US police officers were killed by gunfire in the line of duty.
http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn...l?hpid=topnews

The US is a different situation however, where everyone is armed the police needs to be. Not so in this country.

There are countless instances of accidental shootings by police in the US, everything from mistaken identity to dogs being shot by police.
http://usnews.nbcnews.com/_news/2012...g-address?lite
Its not exactly rocket science, when you arm the police and firearms are present at every call out, more people are going to die.

[Derek]

Originally Posted by Vieil Homme

Regarding the issue of arming all police officers it would be wrong as from inception, the police have not been armed. The day every officer in the UK mainland is armed policing will no longer be by consent as laid down by Robert Peel. While I'm not privy of the amount of armed police, there are more than you think.

Nonsense. In Peels day the original officers were routinely armed with a sword and firearm, until relatively recently officers on night duty could sign out a gun and arm themselves.

And in a previous thread the number of authorised firearms officers was shown, it wasn't a lot at all.

Originally Posted by Vieil Homme

The system is wrong to allow a person who has been charged with a firearms offence. They should never be given bail, he should have been kept on remand until he was either cleared or sentenced for that offence.

He was never charged, they were still gathering evidence.

Originally Posted by Rob

All that might have changed with routine arming, is for the murders to become "suicide by cop"

It might be callous of me but I'd prefer that than having two dead officers, from an ambush point of view they might still have died but at least they would have had a chance.

Originally Posted by tizmeinnit

Also look at what happened recently where 1 man killed another then a Police officer killed innocents.

Eh? When was this?

Originally Posted by tizmeinnit

if attacked with an axe or sword the just keep your or a car between you and the assailant while you call for back up

And how long might that be. Struggling with an axe man waiting for backup is not fun. I've been in that position and firearms officers could easily be 1/2 hour away, that's a long time to run round a car in circles.