The state benefits system mega-thread.

Originally Posted by martyh

So now you are complaining because a Tory PM made it EASIER for sick people to claim benefits and took SICK people of the dole ,confusing or what .

Nothing has been cocked up yet because the system has not been developed and rolled out ,don't forget that the entire welfare system is being redesigned which is no easy task ,a hell of a lot more complicated than it was back during it's inception

not complaining just highlighting the pointless last government did this and so on is

Originally Posted by tizmeinnit

not complaining just highlighting the pointless last government did this and so on is

not pointless at all .It seems to be recurring issue with labour .After the mess they left is it surprising that the fix will take so long and be so complicated

[TheDaddy]

Originally Posted by richard s

I would not like to do the JSA peoples job, the amount of crap that they get is unduly called for. There are the professional shysters out there that never want to work and give the descent people who are genuinely wanting to work a bad name.

I say lets put these time-wasters to picking up litter and graffiti removal to work for their benefits (with travel expenses paid). How do we know who they are.. the JSA people do with their records. Lets give these type of people a purpose in life.

What happens to the people who are employed to pick up litter, they loose their jobs?

[richard s]

Not really as there is so much rubbish lying around and there is loads of stuff to recycle, which we are very poor at.

[Gary L]

Originally Posted by richard s

Not really as there is so much rubbish lying around and there is loads of stuff to recycle, which we are very poor at.

But councils and such are not going to carry on paying employees to do the same job that they can get done for free.

[richard s]

Yes but the people that pick the crap-up now.. will now be the supervisory staff employed by the Council to oversee the operations so there would not be any redundancies.

[Gary L]

You hope.

[Jimi]

Originally Posted by Chris

May I be the first in this thread to invite you to provide proof that ATOS has caused the suicide of 11,500 people.

I can wait.

Still waiting are we?

If person collecting disability benefits is declared “fit-for-work” and then the person*dies within six weeks, one might think the medical assessment was probably*faulty.* Or possibly that the person died of spite. When 200 people a week, more than 10,000 a year, die within six weeks of a “fit-for-work” diagnosis, one suspects that the entire assessment*system is faulty. If people can die from spite to the tune of 10,000 per year, the obvious question is “Whose spite is this?”

In Britain, assessment of the disabled — including fit-for-work tests — has been passed to a private company, Atos, a subsidiary of a French company. The assessment used to be done by National Health Service doctors. A family doctor, knowing the circumstances of a family, might be a bit “soft” and — in borderline cases — might err on the side of declaring a person unfit-for-wor. The Atos system uses qualified doctors and a computer aided diagnosis system to form an independent view.

With two hundred people a week dying within six weeks of a “fit for work” assessment there has been considerable criticism of*Atos*and of the Department of Work And Pensions (DWP). Michael Meacher*MP’s speech on 17 March 2013 contains a devastating analysis of failings.



Read more: http://www.addictinginfo.org/2013/09...#ixzz2eEy02PIW

So, to summarise .... You have no proof that ATOS has caused the suicide of 11,500 people.

Thanks for that.

[nomadking]

Originally Posted by Jimi

Still waiting are we?

If person collecting disability benefits is declared “fit-for-work” and then the person*dies within six weeks, one might think the medical assessment was probably*faulty.* Or possibly that the person died of spite. When 200 people a week, more than 10,000 a year, die within six weeks of a “fit-for-work” diagnosis, one suspects that the entire assessment*system is faulty. If people can die from spite to the tune of 10,000 per year, the obvious question is “Whose spite is this?”

In Britain, assessment of the disabled — including fit-for-work tests — has been passed to a private company, Atos, a subsidiary of a French company. The assessment used to be done by National Health Service doctors. A family doctor, knowing the circumstances of a family, might be a bit “soft” and — in borderline cases — might err on the side of declaring a person unfit-for-wor. The Atos system uses qualified doctors and a computer aided diagnosis system to form an independent view.

With two hundred people a week dying within six weeks of a “fit for work” assessment there has been considerable criticism of*Atos*and of the Department of Work And Pensions (DWP). Michael Meacher*MP’s speech on 17 March 2013 contains a devastating analysis of failings.



Read more: http://www.addictinginfo.org/2013/09...#ixzz2eEy02PIW

This load of UTTER NONSENSE YET AGAIN.
The only figures available and misused for this ridiculous argument are where people ARE STILL RECEIVING ESA. Deaths of those who are no longer on ESA ARE NOT AVAILABLE AND SO CANNOT BE THERE AT ALL. Some of them are yet to have even been assessed by ATOS, others are in the support group. Even whilst appealing you still receive ESA at the assessment rate at worst or possibly the WRAG rate.

From reply to original Freedom of Information request

Table 3: Claimants leaving ESA between January and November 2011 with a recorded date of death, Great Britain.
WCA Outcome at most recent assessment
Number of claimants leaving ESA with a recorded date of death
Assessment not complete 2,200
Work Related Activity Group 1,300
Support Group 7,100
Total 10,600

Data on the number of ESA claimants that have died following a fit for work decision is not available, as the Department does not hold information on a death if the person has already left benefit.
The Department does not hold information on the number of claimants who died whilst an appeal was in progress.

So the number of deaths information is flawed well there is still plenty of evidence showing how flawed ATOS is without it

Whether ATOS are responsible for suicides is beside the point (and cannot be quantified even if true) what the point is, is that they are costing us a lot of money and providing a lousy service doing an injustice both to the people that have to deal with them and the people paying them. I'm all for reforming the system but not the way this government is doing it because they are not achieving much at all a lot of genuine people have been unfairly hit and their suffering increased that cannot be a good thing.

Many organisations joined in with this government early on to suggest practical reforms to the system that wouldn't have caused half the problems and walked away because it became clear the agenda was not really reforming the system. Oh for a bunch of people in government that truly did what was best for the country and the people of this countrry then the ego driven idiots we keep electing.

[nomadking]

LABOUR introduced ESA. This government introduced annual independent reviews of how the system was working. It seems that the government has accepted most, if not all, of its recommendations and is at least attempting to solve issues, unlike Labour. You are not going to change the attitudes of people at ATOS and the DWP overnight. The rot set in and was created under Labour.

[Jimi]

Originally Posted by Chris

So, to summarise .... You have no proof that ATOS has caused the suicide of 11,500 people.

Thanks for that.

As I expected from the Tory loving Daily Mail reader.zzzz boring.

Well reasoned, factual rebuttal...

(or was it an empty ad hominem jibe - difficult to tell the difference).