how about we start a campaign to let VM know that we LIKE SHAPING

[Nedkelly]

No its the bonuses for the top management and a very small pay rise for us

[m044bz00]

Originally Posted by Willc0

how about we start a campaign to let VM know that we LIKE SHAPING - Just a thought for the flip side of this one.

I'm quite happy with whats about to happen. Manly because of the complately transparent way Virgin Media are doing it.

Yeah, you go for it, start a campaign to show you love it, the next step will be peak hours being extended to 16 hours a day then 24 hours a day and more limits, more cost and less and less services

While you're at it why not give the waterboard a call and tell them to cut your supply for 8 hours a day to save water and the same with your electricity so there's enough to go around for all

[Willc0]

Originally Posted by m044bz00

While you're at it why not give the waterboard a call and tell them to cut your supply for 8 hours a day to save water and the same with your electricity so there's enough to go around for all

But there not cutting you off. They are just reducing the amount you can use.


Did someone say hosepipe bans?

[Dawn Falcon]

Originally Posted by dev

most of the bad speeds arent caused by the throttling as its not fully implemented now is it? the throttling is there to cut back the heavy users and improve speeds for users who are seeing bad speeds

Ah, come ON! Throttling is nothing whatsoever to do with heavy users. Heavy users you deal with with a maximum cap per month, and throwing off the 24/7 download abusers. This capping is everything about VM upgrading their speeds for the headlines without a matching investment in infrastructure.

No, I haven't worked for an ISP, but I sold web hosting. Overselling is plain and simple a sin in webhosting, and it's a sin as an ISP.

[alferret]

Ahhhh another thread hijacked by the "WE DONT LIKE SHAPING" fraternity.

Getting it BACK ON TOPIC

I like the shaping, I think its a good thing that VM are doing this. My speed and stability have stablised, im actually getting better speeds between 6pm and midnight than I was 2 months ago


Seems like my local leechers are being traffic shapped to hell and about time

[JackSon]

Originally Posted by alferret

Seems like my local leechers are being traffic shapped to hell and about time

[Dawn Falcon]

Originally Posted by alferret

Seems like my local leechers are being traffic shapped to hell and about time

All this shows is that you don't understand the technical issues involved. There is a general lack of network bandwidth, and the 24/7 downloaders will STILL be hitting hard even at peak times. This move is a stopgap fix to cover up the lack of general core infrastructure improvement, and your improvement is far more likely to be a result of a specific fix rather than a policy which is not, by design, intended to give a *proportional* performance increase (but rather to allow higher headline speeds without said network upgrade).

Come on, this isn't rocket science.

[alferret]

Originally Posted by Dawn Falcon

All this shows is that you don't understand the technical issues involved. There is a general lack of network bandwidth, and the 24/7 downloaders will STILL be hitting hard even at peak times. This move is a stopgap fix to cover up the lack of general core infrastructure improvement, and your improvement is far more likely to be a result of a specific fix rather than a policy which is not, by design, intended to give a *proportional* performance increase (but rather to allow higher headline speeds without said network upgrade).

Come on, this isn't rocket science.

Oh I do understand, believe me I do.
Yes it is a stopgap, and this stopgap has helped my overall speeds during peak hours.
I for one applaud VM, its only those that are losing out on downloading so much material and swamping local connections or people who CAN'T SEE THE BIGGER PICTURE that are moaning.
If by VM using STM to mangage their overall bandwidth consumption they are actually saving money on bandwidth not used, then funds may become availiable to increase the current infrastructure which will then allow more people to have a full speed internet connection 24\7 without raising prices.

[helmutcheese]

Originally Posted by JackSon

Clueless, another user happy to get a backwards service and pay through the nose for it compaired to other countries even some you would class as 3rd world, wonder if he would still take it lying down if the price rose more and the service had a 6GIG PM cap



---------- Post added at 18:45 ---------- Previous post was at 18:43 ----------

Originally Posted by alferret

Oh I do understand, believe me I do.
Yes it is a stopgap, and this stopgap has helped my overall speeds during peak hours.
I for one applaud VM, its only those that are losing out on downloading so much material and swamping local connections or people who CAN'T SEE THE BIGGER PICTURE that are moaning.
If by VM using STM to mangage their overall bandwidth consumption they are actually saving money on bandwidth not used, then funds may become availiable to increase the current infrastructure which will then allow more people to have a full speed internet connection 24\7 without raising prices.

P.S I think you will find the problems are not high users, its lack of upgrades and cash spent over the years on the network.

[JackSon]

Originally Posted by helmutcheese

Clueless, another user happy to get a backwards service and pay through the nose for it compaired to other countries even some you would class as 3rd world, wonder if he would still take it lying down if the price rose more and the service had a 6GIG PM cap

I especially like how having an opinion that differs from yours gives you the judgement of me being clueless.

I wonder if you would take it lying down if a company put on a high rated service and took no useage policies into consideration and therefore let the entire network grind to a halt because of more and more customers continuing to push the boundaries.

I will only accept a service (in terms of braodband) to be truly limitless when we have the capacity to offer infinite bandwidth. Until that leap in quantum physics occurs I am happy to accept the fact that at some point, a line has to be drawn to ensure relative health throughout the entire network. It isn't being clueless, it is called being realistic.

Originally Posted by helmutcheese

P.S I think you will find the problems are not high users, its lack of upgrades and cash spent over the years on the network.

Furthermore, when the the knowledge of NTL's negative cash flow is relatively common place, doesn't it seem a contradiction in your statement that you want them to spend money on their network, which they clearly do not possess whilst NOT charge the customer more? And you call me clueless?

[Dawn Falcon]

Originally Posted by JackSon

it is called being realistic.

It's ONE method of controlling users. However, it's not the only way and a lot of people feel it's not the best way, since it punishers average users for normal usage pattens. Whereas, say, kicking off the 24/7 abusers don't.

As for the network, that IS their problem. If they are overselling, they need to solve it. The sort of measures they are adopting are poor responses, which gain them little time and severely impact a lot of normal users. Headline speed shouldn't be the priority!

[JackSon]

I'll agree with that, it isn't the only method. However, I am happy the company is willing to choose at least one of the methods available and implement them.

[kpanchev]

I remember a similar situation - an electricity network, so overloaded, that the voltage dropped from 240V to 150, 160 volts in peak hours. The solution that the electrical company implemented, was 3 to 1, which means you have electricity for 3 hours, after that 1 hour ... you get the picture. There was, of course, another solution - increase the production of electricity, but this required money to be put into it... So can you imagine how many happy customers this electric company had?
I can give the rest of the story - this happened in the eighties in an Eastern European country. Some ten years later, the people running the country were thrown out of leadership, and put to trial.
Now if you're clever enough, you'll make your own comparisons and conclusions. If, on the contrary, you are not, you'll continue to post here saying what a great job VM is doing and how well they manage their network. And you'll continue to call the people that put to use the service they are paying for 'abusers'.

[helmutcheese]

[JackSon]

Yet another view linking agreement with shaping with poor interlect. They really should do debating in schools, as incinuating insults in an argument, however subtle, detracts credibility from it.


But taking the bait, and continuing along that line of thought I think there is poor sense in trying to discuss broadband service in analogies of other services which actually do not cater for the whole story. Electric supply is one situation, car sales is another; and similarly, broadband is its own specific entity. You cannot describe one by talking about another, as they are not really the same thing having different deciding factors.

As for praising the job VM are doing, I'll just re-explain what I have put before hand. I praise the fact they are putting forth policies in the public eye in order to maintain constant usability from their network after recognising a potential service limitation. Now, this line has to be drawn somewhere, and no matter where it is drawn, there is always going to be some people on the wrong side of it. This line of fair use, outlined by VM, has the implication that anybody exceeding such during the peak usage period (when every man and his dog wants to use the service) is going beyond the amount set aside for their personal use out of the bandwidth pool available to everyone. It is by this definition that some customers are labelled as 'abusers', as is defined by VM and their imposed limits. So in respect of that, yes, for as long as they exceed the fair usage policy, I will continue to use the term 'abusers' seeing as they are using their fair share and portions thereof of other customers. However, it is easily overlooked that despite breeching the fair usage during peak hours, VM are NOT cutting off access to these people, they only decide to turn their speed down for a period. Usually, the penalties for exceeding usage is service termination or extra fees - the policy VM have encompasses none of those measure, it allows service to continue uninterrupted, and that isn't fair? To me, that is worthy of a bit of praise as it is meeting in the middle ground. It is a lenient punishment. However, I will concede, it would be approrpiate for VM to change the 'unlimited' advertising of the service as it is a little misleading in terms of traffic shaping, but it is only the marketing I have a gripe with.


As for money, NTL/VM has been recouping losses for some time as we all know. Therefore investment in the network is also, by no means unlimited, but there is also no doubt that if things are going to improve, it is going to take good old fashioned cash. What's a good way to increase your revenue? Of course, it's the old chestnut of bump up the prices a wee bit. Now, most of us, myself included, would have been a little bit narked if the XL price went up £2 a month extra if nothing else was changing to the service, and I think VM were able to forsee that. So really their only option was to include a speed increase to justify the future rise in broadband rental - and a significant speed increase would also bring in some new customers as well which would help the cash flow. With the existing network, it seems VM were aware that it would not be able to support this huge speed for everbody the whole time so they had to decide what to do. Traffic shaping was obviously their solution, and if it keeps things running, giving us all a fair share of fast access whilst they get themselves and hopefully their network sorted out in the near future, then I don't see it as a waste.

In closing, I am happy to debate why my opion is that shaping is not a bad thing. However, keep insults out of your arguments - let's be grown up about this shall we?