MASSIVE Powercuts in the US

[zoombini]

We also have stations like Dnorweg (however its spelt) that can take up the extra load within seconds to prevent problems like this. Do the states have anything like that? (no idea)
Its a water powered station that uses water flow to provide instant power, pumping it back for reuse later at cheap rate.

However, I'd have thought that somewhere along the line there would have been some massive great big trips that can be tripped to prevent something like this, localising it.
Unless they were computer controlled by the same pc that got hit with the bug in the first place (he, he)...lol

Originally posted by Jerrek
No. Please elaborate and provide details of how "the US system is one of the worst designed." Make comparisons to better systems and tell me exactly how it is that ours is one of the worst. I look forward to your arguments supporting your position.

Due to recent events a weakness in the US power grid has shown up.
Due to differences in operation there are major steps taken within the UK to prevent such a crisis happening.

Therefor it is fair to conclude the US system currently operates on a flawed design.

Originally posted by Jerrek
No. Please elaborate and provide details of how "the US system is one of the worst designed." Make comparisons to better systems and tell me exactly how it is that ours is one of the worst. I look forward to your arguments supporting your position.

Hi Jerrek

i don't think any one is doing any more than reacting to stories like this

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/business/3153237.stm

- a classic case of 20/20 hindsight in my opinion - so please don't be offended, as this kind of report has been all we have had to go on.

- I, for one, would be genuinely interested in your first hand experience, especially as this following story

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/americas/3155305.stm

puts a more human spin on the situation.

Gaz

[Jerrek]

i have stated in the post you quoted why its is designed badly

No you have not. You have called up one occurance and then jumped to the conclusion it is designed badly. An example is not sufficient. I'm asking for you to support your position with facts. Tell me WHAT it is that is that is so badly designed. And then I asked for examples of HOW it should be done.

as for comparisons i can make in the uk we have local systems that go down but only affect certain areas i have had experiance of that and our lines are fine but we also need to look at our own systems and make sure it does not happen here

That is not a good example. There are many times when the local system goes down and only affects that area. In fact, 99.9% of the time that is exactly what happens. So your point is moot.

In the meantime, I'm still waiting for arguments supporting your position on how "the US system is one of the worst designed." Not examples, but facts. You made a very blatant statement and I sure hope you can back it up with more than just one example.

Due to recent events a weakness in the US power grid has shown up.
Due to differences in operation there are major steps taken within the UK to prevent such a crisis happening.

Therefor it is fair to conclude the US system currently operates on a flawed design.

One example is NOT SUFFICIENT to make such a statement. You guys keep making statements but when I ask for proof and arguments you roll over and play dead. Please elaborate on these " differences in operation" and explain it in more detail.

i don't think any one is doing any more than reacting to stories like this

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/business/3153237.stm

- a classic case of 20/20 hindsight in my opinion - so please don't be offended, as this kind of report has been all we have had to go on.

Exactly. They read something in the newspaper and then assume they are an expert in that area. Yes, the guy did say "third-world energy grid." Do you know why? So that people will wake up and invest in utility companies. But stop for a minute and think about it... Is that really true?

I was born in a third world country, grew up in one, and I immigrated out of these. My family and I are refugees. And from first hand experience I *can* tell you it is *not* true. How many outages of this kind have you seen? How many outages in the first place? We've all had the occasional 5-minute blackout, but I just don't see how that can compare to third-world countries where you actually need surge protectors because the power is so damn unstable.

In 1996 I lived in Malaysia (no I was not born there, but I lived there--my parents traveled a lot and I've lived in a number of countries) and the entire *national* grid tripped for more than 12 hours. Did you hear about it on the news? Probably not. Is it a third world country? Yes. Was it an exception to the rule? Yes.

Accidents happen. There isn't too much you can do about it. Making a statement "the US system is one of the worst designed" without bringing arguments and facts to the table is just stupid and yes, I am annoyed by it. The vast majority of people have no idea what they are talking about, and my dad who is an electrical engineer does know what he is talking about and I can tell you one thing: There is a VAST difference between the grid in North America and the grid in some third-world country.

So unless you are going to bring facts and arguments to the table to support such a position, and this DOES require a bit of knowledge about the electical grid systems, SHUT UP. Reading one article in BBC does NOT make you an expert.



As for what I did... I went home at 4:30pm, then went to a friend's, and we played RISK at candle light. I went home again at 11pm and the lights came back on shortly after that. I went to bed and the next day I didn't have to work... I worked in the basement installing the ceiling and thats basically it. Nothing major. Internet was crappy until later that day.

[zoombini]

Calm down Jerrek... no-ones having a go at you.
Obviously the US system is going to be far superior to say one in India or Iraq etc

However it does appear to have a flaw that will undoubtably be fixed pdq.

I have no doubt that there are also flaws in the UK system, the French, German etc..

[Lord Nikon]

I think it would be difficult to protect ANY distributed power system from what happened in the US....


The station that caused it sent out an EM Spike on the power grid, this tripped out other systems on that part of the main power grid, and took down a part of the network, this caused a cascade failure in other key power stations, leaving other power stations trying to supply to a demand far exceeding their supply capability.


In the UK in a similar situation we would have problems too...

Incidentally, I took a tour of the Denbigh Hydro station a few years back... Nice setup, "Electric Mountain" as they call it.

Originally posted by Jerrek

One example is NOT SUFFICIENT to make such a statement. You guys keep making statements but when I ask for proof and arguments you roll over and play dead. Please elaborate on these " differences in operation" and explain it in more detail.

Ok well please dont think I am having a go as I am not. But it seems evident to me that the proof is in the pudding.
We can have major storms that will take out power to 1 maybe 2 villages (usually by bringing down overhead power lines), we have never had a crisis that has resulted in such a catastrophic loss of power. Except when there was the major strikes in the 70's i think.
The emergency backups within the UK national grid allow and compensate for powerstations, substation etc to go offline or explode or whatever and the result is usually a slight flicker in the lights in a house. There are backups to absorb major spikes that in efect should prevent a situation like the one in the US occuring.
Had a system such as this been in place in the US then the power cuts affecting the million and millions of people would not have happened.

Thats why the US system is flawed, it has failed and that in itself is the proof.

[Jerrek]

We can have major storms that will take out power to 1 maybe 2 villages (usually by bringing down overhead power lines)
Same here.

we have never had a crisis that has resulted in such a catastrophic loss of power. Except when there was the major strikes in the 70's i think.
Same here except for last week.

The emergency backups within the UK national grid allow and compensate for powerstations, substation etc to go offline or explode or whatever and the result is usually a slight flicker in the lights in a house.
Same thing here.

There are backups to absorb major spikes that in efect should prevent a situation like the one in the US occuring.
Same thing here.

Had a system such as this been in place in the US then the power cuts affecting the million and millions of people would not have happened.
Wrong. There is always a change that there will go something wrong with the backup systems. And that is what happened.

Thats why the US system is flawed, it has failed and that in itself is the proof.
Didn't you just say you had something in the 70s? Does that mean your system is flawed?


Come on, you need to do better than that. That isn't a way to support your position. You'll get laughed out of debate class.

[duncant403]

Originally posted by Jerrek
we have never had a crisis that has resulted in such a catastrophic loss of power. Except when there was the major strikes in the 70's i think.
Same here except for last week.

Thats why the US system is flawed, it has failed and that in itself is the proof.
Didn't you just say you had something in the 70s? Does that mean your system is flawed?

I believe the "strikes" being referred to during the 70s were industrial action, not lightning strikes. You can't describe a system as flawed if it fails due to the workers not working.

Originally posted by Jerrek
We can have major storms that will take out power to 1 maybe 2 villages (usually by bringing down overhead power lines)
Same here.

we have never had a crisis that has resulted in such a catastrophic loss of power. Except when there was the major strikes in the 70's i think.
Same here except for last week.

The emergency backups within the UK national grid allow and compensate for powerstations, substation etc to go offline or explode or whatever and the result is usually a slight flicker in the lights in a house.
Same thing here.

There are backups to absorb major spikes that in efect should prevent a situation like the one in the US occuring.
Same thing here.

Had a system such as this been in place in the US then the power cuts affecting the million and millions of people would not have happened.
Wrong. There is always a change that there will go something wrong with the backup systems. And that is what happened.

Thats why the US system is flawed, it has failed and that in itself is the proof.
Didn't you just say you had something in the 70s? Does that mean your system is flawed?


Come on, you need to do better than that. That isn't a way to support your position. You'll get laughed out of debate class.

Thats all fine and well, but the system failed, therefor it is flawed.
one of the guys running the national grid in the US said the system was somehting from the third world, what more proof do you need?
And to confirm the "strikes" wer eindeed industrial action, in what I think was called the summer of discontent.