NTL Ireland suspends phone service

[Escapee]

Originally Posted by altis

And again (overheating apparently):
http://www.theregister.co.uk/2004/10/13/ntl_tellabs/

Well the plot does thicken!

I guess it must be the cablespan RSU2300 series equipment, I would of thought other countries would be using the 230V model. The Tellabs name has been about in the CATV industry for a long time, I dont know that much about their products but never heard any bad reports.

It wouldn't be the first time ntl has bought a load of rubbish without first carrying out a comprehensive evaluation, but that would be unfair to make those comments at this point. ntl used to buy things by reading the spec and listening to the salesman selling the kit, that was the big difference between ntl and Telewest. ntl doesn't have a research facility of any calibre, unlike Telewest who have full engineering facilities to evaluate potential equipment before they purchase.

This all sounds very fishy to me, although it does remind me of a certain customer premises product we bought that was very unsafe. It never got taken out of service because the supplier was a Freemason and the buyer was a Freemason. There was a lot of talk about a customer getting an electric shock from that equipment, but it was all hushed up!

[Dingbat]

Originally Posted by andrew_wallasey

Who holds the legal obligation to that because our property never had a phone line connected (no BT wire connected from the pole to our house) for several months.

In the UK, BT are subjected to the Universal Service Obligation, whereas other providers aren't. Subject to certain cost restrictions, BT have to provide telephone service at a customer's request (first line only, though).

Relating back to the thread, a similar regime exists in Ireland with Eircom holding the USO -

"The concept of Universal Service is designed to ensure that that every person can receive a basic set of high quality telecommunications services, no matter where they live, at an affordable price. eircom is the designated ‘Universal Service Provider’ (USP) and has a number of obligations regarding the provision of certain services."

(http://www.askcomreg.ie/home_phone/default.asp?NCID=90)

[Pierre]

I really can't believe that ntl are getting a load of grief over this.

They are responding to a Health and Safety Issue.

They network that is causing the problem isn't all of Dublin and it isn't all Dublin residential customers. The Network is ancient narrowband technology that was installed years before ntl bought it. I remember when it was bought and it people would back from Dublin laughing at the state of it. Saying it was held together by sticky tape and string.

ntl bought Cablelink just so they could get a telecoms licence for Eire and have a established customer base. They have spent a lot of money building a proper SDH and HFC network to replace the old but haven't completely replaced it yet because of the obvious economic problems.

This only affects 2000 people who I'm sure can get e replacement service fro Eirecom or whoever.

What would you rather ntl do, say nothing and let your house burn down

[Stuart]

Originally Posted by Pierre

I really can't believe that ntl are getting a load of grief over this.

They are responding to a Health and Safety Issue.

In fairness to NTL, Pierre is right.

They have identified that the equipment in the customers' homes could possibly be dangerous, so have acted to minimize any danger as quickly as possible.

Even assuming they had the funds to do so, it would still take months to check and if necessary re-install equipment in 2000 homes. In the mean time, they would still need to warn the customers to turn the equipment off, or run the risk of a customer being injured or killed.

They are showing what I would consider a very responsible attitude, and have taken probably the best course of action.

[SMHarman]

Originally Posted by scastle

In fairness to NTL, Pierre is right.

They have identified that the equipment in the customers' homes could possibly be dangerous, so have acted to minimize any danger as quickly as possible.

Even assuming they had the funds to do so, it would still take months to check and if necessary re-install equipment in 2000 homes. In the mean time, they would still need to warn the customers to turn the equipment off, or run the risk of a customer being injured or killed.

They are showing what I would consider a very responsible attitude, and have taken probably the best course of action.

However the NTL PR machine does not appear to be handling this well. Considering as you point out this is 2000 out of 1,000,000 + phone accounts their PR machine should be upplaying the safety aspect and highlighting how few customers are affected.

[Stuart]

Originally Posted by SMHarman

However the NTL PR machine does not appear to be handling this well. Considering as you point out this is 2000 out of 1,000,000 + phone accounts their PR machine should be upplaying the safety aspect and highlighting how few customers are affected.

True, but PR does require NTL to communicate with the customer, which appears to be something they are not good at.. Not at a corporate level anyway.

[Escapee]

Originally Posted by scastle

In fairness to NTL, Pierre is right.

They have identified that the equipment in the customers' homes could possibly be dangerous, so have acted to minimize any danger as quickly as possible.

Even assuming they had the funds to do so, it would still take months to check and if necessary re-install equipment in 2000 homes. In the mean time, they would still need to warn the customers to turn the equipment off, or run the risk of a customer being injured or killed.

They are showing what I would consider a very responsible attitude, and have taken probably the best course of action.

Yes, but as far as I understand ntl is the only Tellabs customer saying the equipment is unsafe, didn't I read there was something like 60000 of these units in use all around the world. I also heard a lot about the Southern Ireland systems when they bought them, they were trying to recruit engineers who worked on the old overhead systems in Wales because they were not happy with the contractors standard of work.

As I mentioned before, one guy who went over there and was heavily involved in the upgrades left a lot of problems behind in Wales from his bodging.

It has been said for a long time that the high maintenance of the system in Southern Ireland has made it more trouble than it was worth.

The bad PR, the state of ntl and the facts about the state of things there seem to add up to one conclusion

[Stuart]

Originally Posted by Escapee

Yes, but as far as I understand ntl is the only Tellabs customer saying the equipment is unsafe, didn't I read there was something like 60000 of these units in use all around the world. I also heard a lot about the Southern Ireland systems when they bought them, they were trying to recruit engineers who worked on the old overhead systems in Wales because they were not happy with the contractors standard of work.
<snip>

Actually, what I said applies whether the equipment was badly installed or not. If they have identified a problem (whether with the equipment itself or with the way was installed) that is a potential safety hazard, then the only quick fix would be to tell customers not to use the service. Then, they would need to investigate the problem, and possibly test all the equipment, which, however much money they throw at it, is going to take time.

I actually expressed no opinion as to whether the equipment was safe or not. I can't, I don't know the equipment and haven't seen the installations.

[Escapee]

Originally Posted by scastle

Actually, what I said applies whether the equipment was badly installed or not. If they have identified a problem (whether with the equipment itself or with the way was installed) that is a potential safety hazard, then the only quick fix would be to tell customers not to use the service. Then, they would need to investigate the problem, and possibly test all the equipment, which, however much money they throw at it, is going to take time.

I actually expressed no opinion as to whether the equipment was safe or not. I can't, I don't know the equipment and haven't seen the installations.

I admit to finding ntl a very strange company, they have absolutely no engineering facilities or knowledge for this sort of problem.

I moved to ntl from a small tin pot company that got bought out by cableTel/ntl, we might of been tim pot but we would of certainly dealt with this sort of problem. I remember dealing with a similar safety issue involving a customer premise equipment affecting similar numbers of customers, probably twice that amount.

I was part of a central engineering facility that evaluated products and repaired to component level in-house all the network and customer equipment for the whole country, we even designed our own such as scramblers to work with jerrold set-tops. As I say we might of been tin pot, but compared to ntl we were leagues ahead. (As is Telewest) ntl is a company seriously lacking in engineers of any calibre, always has been always will be.

I have never understood the attitude in ntl where the company is maintaining a network full of equipment but has so little in-depth knowledge of the products they are using. the little tin pot company I worked for would of come up with an engineering solution and moved very quickly, because they wouldn't of been able to afford the loss of revenue like ntl can.

How can they throw customers and money away like this.

[Pierre]

ntl is a company seriously lacking in engineers of any calibre, always has been always will be.

Sweeping generalisation, you haven't worked for ntl for years so how could you know. I know you'll refer to your "sources" but a few engineers in South Wales is not the whole of ntl

I have never understood the attitude in ntl where the company is maintaining a network full of equipment but has so little in-depth knowledge of the products they are using. the little tin pot company I worked for would of come up with an engineering solution and moved very quickly, because they wouldn't of been able to afford the loss of revenue like ntl can

The technology of the old cablelink in Dublin, as you know is outdated and probably more trouble than it's worth.

Has it not occured to you that perhaps ntl would rather just not bother spending money trying to find a solution? It's probably cheaper and easier to just write it off.

I'm sure if the revenue from those 2,000 customers was vitally important they would look for solution. My assessment would be that it not finiancially viable to first identify the problem, come up with a solution and then implement.

Maybe your "tin-pot" firm might have come with a solution, but then again your tin-pot firm might have been dependant on the revenue.

[Escapee]

Originally Posted by Pierre

Sweeping generalisation, you haven't worked for ntl for years so how could you know. I know you'll refer to your "sources" but a few engineers in South Wales is not the whole of ntl



The technology of the old cablelink in Dublin, as you know is outdated and probably more trouble than it's worth.

Has it not occured to you that perhaps ntl would rather just not bother spending money trying to find a solution? It's probably cheaper and easier to just write it off.

I'm sure if the revenue from those 2,000 customers was vitally important they would look for solution. My assessment would be that it not finiancially viable to first identify the problem, come up with a solution and then implement.

Maybe your "tin-pot" firm might have come with a solution, but then again your tin-pot firm might have been dependant on the revenue.

I think you have answered most of my questions yourself, ntl obviously deem these customers more trouble than they are worth and after all ntl have profit coming out of their ears.

As for a few engineers in Wales, I dont think thats a fair comment. I was working as part of a national team based in Wales, and after that worked for a company commisioning a network management system across all of ntl/cwc networks. Many of the c**k-ups by corporate engineers were well known, including many recent ones by some well paid corporate engineers such as the shambles of levels on the network caused by so-called experienced engineers who made decisions without the basic skills required to do the job. I was being told about one shambles and stopped the person mid sentence because I guessed straight away what a silly c**k-up they had made.

One very senior engineering guy recently agrued with another engineer about modulated/un-modulated QPSK having different levels, I laughed and fell off my chair. I then conducted some tests with un-modulated, Modulted, with FEC, with Scrambling at different baud rates with some satellite uplink equipment. I provided the results to make this guy look the idiot he is.

Still he gets about 50K a year as a very senior engineering manager, so I guess he's not such a mug is he. btw Telewest kicked him out because he was no good.

PS: This is the same senior engineering manager who asked how do you ping something a few years ago! he was told to open a DOS window, and he said "How do I do that".........only in ntl

[andygrif]

Originally Posted by Pierre

I really can't believe that ntl are getting a load of grief over this.

They are responding to a Health and Safety Issue.

<snip>

What would you rather ntl do, say nothing and let your house burn down

Of course if there is an issue you're right, they need to react quickly. However it is pointing to an issue with the installation rather than the kit, which doesn't really help their case.

From the Tellabs Website

Tellabs expresses confidence in CABLESPANÂÂÂà ‚® product

Naperville, Ill. †“ Tellabs today issued the following statement in response to news stories on its CABLESPAN product:
"Tellabs is confident that our CABLESPAN units are safe when properly installed. Since 1998, our customers have deployed almost 600,000 indoor service units around the world. CABLESPAN equipment was rigorously tested and certified for safety prior to deployment.

"ntl, a cable operator in Ireland, recently informed Tellabs of two isolated incidents involving potential health and safety issues. On receiving this information, Tellabs retained an eminent independent engineering consultant who indicates, based on the evidence available, that the probable cause of these incidents was improper installation of the equipment. We are continuing to work with ntl to determine the exact cause of the incidents."

[Escapee]

Originally Posted by andygrif

Of course if there is an issue you're right, they need to react quickly. However it is pointing to an issue with the installation rather than the kit, which doesn't really help their case.

From the Tellabs Website

I think the issue is the reason for closing the system.

We all know it's unprofitable and pierre has said the same, if ntl has told porkies about the Tellabs equipment thats disgusting.

I worked for a company supplying equipment after I left ntl, and they had a power surge at one headend site probably due to a faulty UPS etc.
The equipment we supplied had a surge arrestor fitted before the fuse, this is not good practice and I we agreed with everyone at ntl. however ntl had cut corners and did not have each mains outlet independently fused, in South Wales the equipment rackes were not even independently fused in many cases. ntl save a bit of cash on fuses but the customer suffers at the end of the day due to a less reliable service.

The end result was the company I worked for agreed to rectify the fuse/arrestor situation and ntl said they would not pay until it had been completed, ntl appeared to be playing for time after modifications were made. They still witheld payment and ntl soon went into chapter 11.

Cynical old me was the one everyone laughed at when I said ntl would never pay the $10M they owed us!