Israel, Hamas, Hezbollah, Iran … War

[Ms NTL]

2.5 million Gazans will get plenty of water and food from 20 trucks

Originally Posted by TheDaddy

How many hospitals have been attacked since the start of this war, one of the reasons nothing definitive can be concluded now is because this one was damaged in a previous strike

Insisting that we can’t draw conclusions because everybody had a motive is being deliberately obtuse. As in any criminal investigation you go where the evidence leads you.

There is physical evidence on the ground that clearly indicates this was not an Israelii missile but a terrorist one that still had a substantial propellant load (there was almost no crater, almost no blast damage, but a lot of fire). There is video evidence of the missile breaking up mid-air and landing on the hospital. There are recordings of the terrorists discussing it and acknowledging what they’ve done.

There is absolutely no evidence that Israel faked any of the above so as to make something they did, look like something Hamas or one of its fellow travellers did. The claim that “Ah well they’ve bombed hospitals before” is not evidence. It’s the cry of a petty criminal who insists he’s being fitted up when he’s been caught climbing out of someone’s kitchen window.

[TheDaddy]

Originally Posted by Chris

Insisting that we can’t draw conclusions because everybody had a motive is being deliberately obtuse. As in any criminal investigation you go where the evidence leads you.

There is physical evidence on the ground that clearly indicates this was not an Israelii missile but a terrorist one that still had a substantial propellant load (there was almost no crater, almost no blast damage, but a lot of fire). There is video evidence of the missile breaking up mid-air and landing on the hospital. There are recordings of the terrorists discussing it and acknowledging what they’ve done.

There is absolutely no evidence that Israel faked any of the above so as to make something they did, look like something Hamas or one of its fellow travellers did. The claim that “Ah well they’ve bombed hospitals before” is not evidence. It’s the cry of a petty criminal who insists he’s being fitted up when he’s been caught climbing out of someone’s kitchen window.

The answer is 10 btw, 10 hospitals hit

Ah yes the recording of the terrorists discussing what they've done, the one many experts claim lacks credibility and is absurd due to the language, tone, syntax, dialect and accent , stuff like that is why I prefer to wait than rush to judgement, pretty much in the same way I didn't rush to blame the Israelis when it happened

Originally Posted by TheDaddy

The answer is 10 btw, 10 hospitals hit

Ah yes the recording of the terrorists discussing what they've done, the one many experts claim lacks credibility and is absurd due to the language, tone, syntax, dialect and accent , stuff like that is why I prefer to wait than rush to judgement, pretty much in the same way I didn't rush to blame the Israelis when it happened

Look … I see all the same bonkers Tweets you do. There’s no point laundering their contents here as if simply making an assertion somehow makes it credible.

In fact, I almost didn’t mention the recording because I am well aware that some of Hamas’ most fervent cheerleaders have been saying all those things about it. They have to really, because it’s damning, and it’s also the only piece of the evidence they have any hope of discrediting.

You are however making a serious evidence-handling error by allowing subjective opinions about someone’s accent to weigh more heavily than the physical evidence at the blast site. You are quite honestly drifting into ‘CIA blew up the twin towers’ territory with this. The conjecture that Israel somehow acquired a PIJ missile, fired it from within Gaza, and contrived for it to break apart mid-flight in exactly the right place for most of it to land on the hospital, is beyond absurd.

They simply do not need to discredit Hamas or Palestinian Islamic Jihad right now, which is the only plausible motive for them to set up a false flag attack or ‘accident’ at the hospital. The terrorist attacks within Israel itself have given them more than enough self-justification to do whatever they feel they need to.

[OLD BOY]

Originally Posted by Ms NTL

2.5 million Gazans will get plenty of water and food from 20 trucks

Yes, but sadly, the Palestinians living in Gaza City won’t see any of this.

I think Israel should not continue to delay its ground invasion. It will be bloody, but until Israel can move in and start to disable Hamas, the people trapped there will die through hunger and lack of water.

[TheDaddy]

Originally Posted by Chris

Look … I see all the same bonkers Tweets you do. There’s no point laundering their contents here as if simply making an assertion somehow makes it credible.

In fact, I almost didn’t mention the recording because I am well aware that some of Hamas’ most fervent cheerleaders have been saying all those things about it. They have to really, because it’s damning, and it’s also the only piece of the evidence they have any hope of discrediting.

You are however making a serious evidence-handling error by allowing subjective opinions about someone’s accent to weigh more heavily than the physical evidence at the blast site. You are quite honestly drifting into ‘CIA blew up the twin towers’ territory with this. The conjecture that Israel somehow acquired a PIJ missile, fired it from within Gaza, and contrived for it to break apart mid-flight in exactly the right place for most of it to land on the hospital, is beyond absurd.

They simply do not need to discredit Hamas or Palestinian Islamic Jihad right now, which is the only plausible motive for them to set up a false flag attack or ‘accident’ at the hospital. The terrorist attacks within Israel itself have given them more than enough self-justification to do whatever they feel they need to.

I've not said or done any of that save for saying I won't be jumping to any conclusions and here you are evidence handling like some weird arabian nights sherlock holmes and drifting into conspiracy theories I've never mentioned, it's worrying how easily you make the leap from what little I said to that tbh and it wasn't on twitter I heard about the recording, it was my nephew the journalist for an Arabic newspaper who incidentally reported the baby atrocities long before anyone else confirmed it who told me there were serious issues with the recording and channel 4 news picked up on it

[ianch99]

Originally Posted by Pierre

The hundreds of civilians were only there because Hamas attacked Israel. I understand this is a complex situation that some can find hard to grasp but actions do have consequences.

Originally Posted by Paul

How so ?

Because those 1000's of civilians were there because the IDF bombed their homes after Hamas attacked Israel.

This whole sorry story is not binary and it is not black and white. Actions have consequences on both sides.

[Pierre]

Originally Posted by ianch99

Because those 1000's of civilians were there because the IDF bombed their homes after Hamas attacked Israel.

This whole sorry story is not binary and it is not black and white. Actions have consequences on both sides.

So logically, if Hamas had not attacked Israel, Israel would not have bombed their homes and there wouldn’t have been civilians there, in fact none of the current actions would have happened.

This particular episode that started Saturday before last, is 100% down to Hamas, and Hamas are 100% culpable.

---------- Post added at 18:49 ---------- Previous post was at 18:46 ----------

Originally Posted by Mr K

Israel bombing hospitals and schools, who are the terrorists now?
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/live/worl...-east-67119233

Didn’t age well, did it?

[OLD BOY]

Well said, Pierre, but don’t expect the anti-Jewish guys to understand that. If this was the other way around, those same people would not be making these contorted arguments.

It’s always the same. Israel is attacked mercilessly with a constant stream of rockets and other terrorist acts, and when Israel responds, it is they who are condemned.

I’m afraid that logic goes out of the window where Israel and Palestine is discussed.

[Mr K]

Originally Posted by Pierre

Didn’t age well, did it?

We're still none the wiser ( and I was just posting the BBC story). I wouldn't believe either side more than the other.
Hamas and Israel have got form when it comes to disinformation.

Meanwhile a humanitarian disaster is unfolding, which we're supporting/ turning a blind eye to.

[ianch99]

Originally Posted by OLD BOY

Well said, Pierre, but don’t expect the anti-Jewish guys to understand that. If this was the other way around, those same people would not be making these contorted arguments.

It’s always the same. Israel is attacked mercilessly with a constant stream of rockets and other terrorist acts, and when Israel responds, it is they who are condemned.

I’m afraid that logic goes out of the window where Israel and Palestine is discussed.

Who are these "anti-Jewish guys" you refer to? Antisemitism is a serious accusation so please be very careful with your language.

[Pierre]

Originally Posted by Mr K

We're still none the wiser

Well, we are. Evidence shows that it is almost certainly a rocket fired from within Gaza that failed.

It also didn’t hit the hospital, but a car park

And 500 people didn’t die.

But apart from that, we’re very much in tha dark.

( and I was just posting the BBC story).

This is the best quote. “I just immediately regurgitated the BBC story, without thinking”

I don’t blame you because I would expect someone like you to vault onto a headline without applying a little critical thought. But I do blame the BBC and all other MSM outlets. I can’t understand how this all got past Mariana Spring and the BBC misinformation desk?

Of course they would accept Hamas’ version of events with corroboration, Hamas being so trustworthy and all.

I wouldn't believe either side more than the other.

seems you did

Hamas and Israel have got form when it comes to disinformation.

no shit?

Meanwhile a humanitarian disaster is unfolding, which we're supporting/ turning a blind eye to.

Are you supporting it! I’m not. I don’t think many on here are either.

[richard-john56]

What Israel is doing to Gaza seems like a Warsaw II scenario.

[1andrew1]

Originally Posted by OLD BOY

Well said, Pierre, but don’t expect the anti-Jewish guys to understand that. If this was the other way around, those same people would not be making these contorted arguments.

It’s always the same. Israel is attacked mercilessly with a constant stream of rockets and other terrorist acts, and when Israel responds, it is they who are condemned.

I’m afraid that logic goes out of the window where Israel and Palestine is discussed.

I've not seen any anti-semitic posts in this thread nor have I thought for even a second that the moderators would permit it. Criticism of some of Israel's actions is not the same thing. Indeed, some notable Jewish lawyers recently wrote an open letter raising their concerns about Israel's actions in Gaza. You wouldn't describe them as anti-Jewish, would you?

A former president of the UK’s Supreme Court and seven other eminent lawyers have urged Israel to remember its obligations under international law, saying they had “significant concern” about aspects of its actions in Gaza.

The leading legal figures, including Lord David Neuberger, president of the UK’s highest court in 2012-17, and Philippe Sands KC, said they were speaking both as Jews and as lawyers.

In a letter to the Financial Times, they wrote that, though the “vile crimes perpetrated by Hamas in Israel have shaken us to our core”, the laws of war “apply irrespective of the level of outrageous conduct of an enemy”.

They noted that Gaza was home to 2mn people, almost half of whom are children: “It would be a grave violation of international law to hold them under siege and whilst doing so deprive them of basic necessities such as food and water.”

The lawyers added that “collective punishment is prohibited by the laws of war”.

They further warned that it was unlawful to intentionally cause “indiscriminate damage” and said “politicians and commanders” should not use language that implies the laws of war can be disregarded or “whose effect is to dehumanise a civilian population”.

https://www.ft.com/content/dab1c9ff-...b-43aea6382471

[OLD BOY]

It is very hard to disregard the fact that people are demanding much higher standards than Hamas practices, even to the extent that doing what some are suggesting would not only prolong this bitter dispute but would ultimately not change anything.

This is the perfect opportunity for Israel to eliminate the scourge of Hamas once and for all, and they need to take it while protecting civilians as best they can during the operation.