*ALL* ntl Cap Discussion Here Please.

[Neil]

It all comes down to my old favourite-choice (or lack of it) from ntl.

[ian@huth]

Originally Posted by mojo

Well, you would assume companies like Demon who have been around from many years are making some kind of profit. They offer 512k uncapped without any web space and a dynamic IP for £20/month, or for an extra fiver you get 20MB web space and a fixed IP. Seems like a good trade.

Clara do 512k plus their news service for £30/month, but since I am already paying for their news service to supplement the NTL one it's more like £23 to me. Uncapped.

I think the reason people are getting so upset by this is the NTL lock-in. To change ADSL provider, you just phone up, cancel and order something else. With NTL, you have to get a new phone like and switch to Sky too. NTL won't give you back ten quids line rental if you only want TV.

On the plus side, if you phone up and try to cancel stuff, they usually offer it to you for free for a few months, hoping you will forget to cancel it again. At least that makes switching over a bit easier.

AFAIK Demon is owned by the Thus group who are making an operating loss.

[Nikko]

Originally Posted by Wombat

HI all !

(Snip)

What i am worried about is that these caps will affect me due to no fault of my own. An example when software such as online games patch or you download a game i.e. from valve these files can be hundreds of megabytes in size so although your not doing anything illegal you couldbe eating away at your monthly download allowance due to no fault of your own.

(Snip)

Firstly to CF Wombat

I have the same problem - things update, I download stuff, I browse, I stream and it all increases my usage. But as you say, none of it is my fault - perhaps we could join forces and find the real culprit for us clicking on things?

[Rik]

Originally Posted by Hans Gruber

I'm a customer and I'm not happy

I`m a customer and I`m extremely happy ;-)
2 years of trouble free broadband!!

Well Done NTL

PS. No I dont work for NTL lol

[Chrysalis]

Originally Posted by ianathuth

AFAIK Demon is owned by the Thus group who are making an operating loss.

Irrelevant whats relevant is they offer it what he stated above. Like I said profit isnt everything.

Summary of questions unanswered by ntl staff/shareholders at this point.

How do telewest manage to offer unmetered services on higher speeds using the same technology?

What is the average use of 1.5mbit ntl broadband customers only?

Does NTL broadband sector subsidise their TV sector?

Why dont NTL staff/shareholders pass on feedback to senior staff at NTL who have the power to make decisions on the new packages instead of telling people to go away?

Does NTL consider someone who uses a high amount of traffic but buys premium tv/phone packages a liability and prefers to lose that customer and possibly others who he warns away from NTL?

Is the install fee free permanently?

Whats the average customer rentention period?

Why do NTL refuse to consider alternative ways of making money and kurbing 24/7 leechers? (one example if the option was there I would pay £3 a month to not use transperent proxies)

[Nikko]

Originally Posted by Chrysalis

Irrelevant whats relevant is they offer it what he stated above. Like I said profit isnt everything.

Summary of questions unanswered by ntl staff/shareholders at this point.

How do telewest manage to offer unmetered services on higher speeds using the same technology?

What is the average use of 1.5mbit ntl broadband customers only?

Does NTL broadband sector subsidise their TV sector?

Why dont NTL staff/shareholders pass on feedback to senior staff at NTL who have the power to make decisions on the new packages instead of telling people to go away?

Does NTL consider someone who uses a high amount of traffic but buys premium tv/phone packages a liability and prefers to lose that customer and possibly others who he warns away from NTL?

Is the install fee free permanently?

Whats the average customer rentention period?

Why do NTL refuse to consider alternative ways of making money and kurbing 24/7 leechers? (one example if the option was there I would pay £3 a month to not use transperent proxies)

Out of interest, has it occurred to you that ntl may well monitor and respond to various feedback on forums such as this, and Staff may well feed opinions & suggestions back up the chain of command, where they consider it salient?

Furthermore, has it occured to you that constant insiduous griping is recognised and overlooked , because if it is perceived that ill-informed, speculative, self important prodders that have nothing to add to improve things, but follow some personal agenda, run the risk of having anything worthwhile they may have proposed ignored.

Also, I am sure it is unlikely that any commercial organisation would release sensitive information on current & proposed services just because someone posts a list of questions.

I am sure you will take my comments no more personally than anyone who may be involved in the various aspects of ntl will have taken any of yours.

[Stuart]

Originally Posted by Chrysalis

Irrelevant whats relevant is they offer it what he stated above. Like I said profit isnt everything.

Why is it irrelevant? Demon are owned by the Thus group. Thus group are making losses, some of which can probably be traced to Demon.

Regarding your profit statement. While I do agree profit isn't everything it is rather important to any company.

How do telewest manage to offer unmetered services on higher speeds using the same technology?

Based on what I have read on this forum (mainly from Ignition, but from other sources too), Telewest are able to offer the increased speeds because they run their equipment past it's maximum limits. They also have a smaller network, not all of which will be able to offer the increased speeds.

<snip>
Why do NTL refuse to consider alternative ways of making money and kurbing 24/7 leechers? (one example if the option was there I would pay £3 a month to not use transperent proxies)

I don't know your browsing/downloading habits, but I suspect the amount it would cost NTL would far exceed the £3 a month from each user if they offered the option to not use transparent proxies. These proxies are their to minimise network use, therefore reduce costs.

Originally Posted by Nikko

Furthermore, has it occured to you that constant insiduous griping is recognised and overlooked , because if it is perceived that ill-informed, speculative, self important prodders that have nothing to add to improve things, but follow some personal agenda, run the risk of having anything worthwhile they may have proposed ignored.

Nikko

if only i could rep you twice. . Please except a green one for a well put together post.

[Chrysalis]

"Why is it irrelevant? Demon are owned by the Thus group. Thus group are making losses, some of which can probably be traced to Demon.

Regarding your profit statement. While I do agree profit isn't everything it is rather important to any company."

Well it may be important but it obviously isnt essential otherwise demon wouldnt be still around after many years of operation.

"Based on what I have read on this forum (mainly from Ignition, but from other sources too), Telewest are able to offer the increased speeds because they run their equipment past it's maximum limits. They also have a smaller network, not all of which will be able to offer the increased speeds."

Only thing I read is ignition saying he couldnt say due to NDA agreement, but if telwest were running equipment past limit's wouldn't users notice with reduced speeds and increased pings? doesnt seem to be the case, do you know this or is it an accusation.

"I don't know your browsing/downloading habits, but I suspect the amount it would cost NTL would far exceed the £3 a month from each user if they offered the option to not use transparent proxies. These proxies are their to minimise network use, therefore reduce costs."

Well I tend to probably mainly browse forums and news sites and I usually do it a few times a day for around an hour at a time as an average, but it wouldnt hurt ntl much, because my pc caches images and only data that changes will need to be download which is usually just text.

"Furthermore, has it occured to you that constant insiduous griping is recognised and overlooked , because if it is perceived that ill-informed, speculative, self important prodders that have nothing to add to improve things, but follow some personal agenda, run the risk of having anything worthwhile they may have proposed ignored."

Depends how you see it, I have spent a fair bit of time coming up with sensible questions as to why I cant expect the same service as my friend gets in liverpool, if someone did send feedback to ntl I am sure they would have posted on here saying so, and then knowing thats the case I would have no need to repeat simple questions.

I would like to know what my agenda is, is it wanting a package to suit my needs of a decent quality of service. I got no evil agenda to remove ntl from this planet dont worry, I am worried why you feel so threatened by my questions. I wonder how you would feel if things were the other way, ntl dropped the bottom 2 tiers and there was only 1 package at £50 a month which was unmetered take it or lump it, I bet you would be here saying why should I pay £50 for the 1 gig I use a month.

I will justfiy the questions I asked.

"How do telewest manage to offer unmetered services on higher speeds using the same technology?"
Telewest users I know dont suffer from poor quality service and have better pings then me, they also have a higher burst speed and no traffic limit, I feel I have the right to ask how ntl cannot match it.

"What is the average use of 1.5mbit ntl broadband customers only?"
Igniion and a few others have repeatedly thrown stats at us which favour low usage customers saying that 95% of users dont go over 6 gig a month, my gripe is I bet most of this 95% are on the bottom tier and as such are not going to use a lot anyway and pay less money then me, how can someone on the top tier be compared to such stats, so I simply asked the average usage of users paying 37.99 a month. Seems I have to assume its much higher since the questioned has scared you.

"Does NTL broadband sector subsidise their TV sector?"
I have heard from a friend who used to work for ntl that at the time he was working there their tv sector was making a loss and the broadband sector was making what they called a handsome profit and the company was trying to make the broadband offset the tv losses, I was simply trying to see if this is true.

"Why dont NTL staff/shareholders pass on feedback to senior staff at NTL who have the power to make decisions on the new packages instead of telling people to go away?"
Again as said above this would go along way of making me feel more satisfied, how many times have you been to a shop asking for something they dont stock and got told to fob off, probably never in all likelyhood the shop would probably try to get the item you after for you, or politely apologise. Here people having a problem with whats on offer simply seems to offend staff, not quite sure why I have no personal gripes with anyone here.

"Does NTL consider someone who uses a high amount of traffic but buys premium tv/phone packages a liability and prefers to lose that customer and possibly others who he warns away from NTL?"
Asked this question because of remarks made by staff/shareholders saying if you not satisfied go elsewhere.

"Is the install fee free permanently?"
Well, ntl staff/shareholders seem to be making a claim ntl are barely making a profit and need to cap to remain profitable but are willing to throw money away on new probable short term customers. I think most people expect to pay a setup fee for broadband, all ADSL providers charge it most of the year so it wouldnt scare anyone off.

"Whats the average customer rentention period?"
True indication of customer staisfaction levels, having more customers joining then leaving doesnt mean they satisfied, the uk population is growing so its not that hard to achieve but what is harder to achieve is keeping customers beyond their 1 year contract. Have a average 5 year retention? then tell me and put me in my place.

"Why do NTL refuse to consider alternative ways of making money and kurbing 24/7 leechers? (one example if the option was there I would pay £3 a month to not use transperent proxies)"
Same reason as install fee question but also trying to throw ideas the direction of the people who are in a position to pass on views to senior ntl decision makers. I have seen a few isp's asking customers what they would want that they dont provide I cant see what negative impact it could possibly cause ntl.

I hope I have kept my remarks constructive enough and people have the time to read.

Thanks

[Ignition]

Originally Posted by scastle

Based on what I have read on this forum (mainly from Ignition, but from other sources too), Telewest are able to offer the increased speeds because they run their equipment past it's maximum limits. They also have a smaller network, not all of which will be able to offer the increased speeds.

Sorry if I gave that impression, if you check a few pages previous you'll see that I answered this question by explaining that Telewest did a massive resegmentation and upgrade program a couple of years ago before going into bankruptcy protection.

Purely my opinion, but sadly I don't think that the powers that be in ntl are or have accorded the HFC network the respect it deserves, far more so that Telewest due to ntl being a larger company with more and much larger non-HFC networks and interests.

Originally Posted by ianathuth

AFAIK Demon is owned by the Thus group who are making an operating loss.

I very seriously doubt that Demon is making a loss. Demon has been around for over ten years. Companies that make a loss don't last long. Also, if they are making a loss now, they have no hope for the future since they apparently can't make a profit from an averagely priced service.

I think the reason Demon are able to offer what the do is because Demon has always been well run from a technical point of view. Reading their customer bulletins and going by the fact that when I was on them for 3+ years they had about three days of intermittant email access and no other problems makes me think they know what they are doing. I'm not suggesting NTL engineers are totally incompetant (although by the number of call-outs I've had, you might think so), more that it just seems like Demon got the technology right from day one and so don't have any major network or capacity issues. Plus, they don't seem afraid to spend money on upgrades when needed.

Oh, and before you start about how rubbish Demon are:

http://www.adslguide.org.uk/isps/com...action=Compare

http://www.demon.net/helpdesk/networkstatus/

Check out the second one, Message of the Day and Service Announcements. Very few problems, and when there are issues they get fixed within HOURS. It's hard to even report problems to NTL, Demon actually give you an email address and bother to read it.

It's a shame NTL has to dump it's problems on it's customers, rather than fixing them.

[caveman]

If as promised our BB connection are increased this spring, capping is being introduced. For us greenhorns out here, what exactly is it. Does it refer to downloading as in file downloads eg. music, P to P etc. or is it an accumulation of all data involved in web browsing. Please explain what it is and what happens when you reach your limit for the month.

[Paul K]

Accumulation of all data as far as I know but other members may have the full answer for you.
You are set a monthly limit for traffic and when you hit it NTL will monitor how much extra you use and if you regularly breach the cap by massive ammounts they would bill you for the extra bandwidth used or suggest you increase your package tier.

[Matth]

All data, apart from system overhead - certainly, browsing text, images, collecting email will all count.

What happens - nobody knows yet ... the only thing that WILL happen, is this thread will be closed or merged!

[Paul K]

There's more info here on the cap and what it will mean:
http://www.ntlworld.com/service_update.html

1. What does the 1 Giga Byte limit mean in practical terms?

As a rough guide, 1 gigabyte of data per day is approximately:
- 100 large software programs
- 200 music tracks
- 650 short videos
- 10,000 pictures
- 20,000 web pages
- And should not impact gaming applications at all

For a more specific guide, there are a number of freeware applications that approximately monitor data download. We will be looking to distribute and ntl-approved monitor shortly. In the meantime, however, customers need not be too concerned: NTL will be in touch and able to provide advice if you regularly exceed the limit for your speed of service.

2. Can higher speed broadband customers have a higher daily download limit?

In response to the strong customer enquiry we got on this point, we will be investigating whether we can provide variable limits based on service speed. We expect to have an answer soon.

It should be noted, however, that some customers confused our 1 Giga Byte limit with their kilo Bit speeds. 1 Giga Byte is equivalent to 8 Giga Bits.

Also, in practical terms the slower speeds of the overall Internet often cause average speeds to be lower than the maximum speed allowed. Thus users could have several more actual hours of downloads than would be indicated by strictly dividing the limit by the speed.

3. How flexible will ntl be about these new limits?

We will be very flexible. Our objective is only to limit very frequent or persistent heavy network use that can impact other customers. Therefore we will ONLY contact customers who exceed the daily data limit for three or more days in any consecutive 14-day period.

If you occasionally exceed your data limit, it will not be a problem. Remember our goal is to give freedom and easy usage to our customers. This rule ensures that you have peace of mind and that we are able to reduce the unfair prolonged usage by a small number.

4. When and how will the limits be applied?

For the next 60 days, NTL will monitor network usage and only contact customers who exceed the limit as described above. Our aim is not to disturb customers; rather, our goal is to make customers aware so that they may change their usage patterns if possible. If we successfully alter the usage patterns, there would be no further need for any other adjustments.

5. Will customers be disconnected if they use more than the given limit?

No. Our customers are important to us. We will simply advise customers how to moderate their bandwidth usage. Our research has shown that consumers will be happy with this approach.