Could this be the year of major problems

[Gary L]

Originally Posted by martyh

speak for yourself Gary ,if your dumb enough to fall for that then that's your look out .I for one don't hate benefit claimants ,i hate SOME benefit claimants ,i hate the way SOME benefit claimants think they have a right to live off the state and i especially hate SOME benefit claimants that whinge when they get a pay rise .Life is not easy for benefit claimants ,it's not meant to be, but for some of us workers (that's the class of people below benefit claimants)life can be even harder and even more unjust

You never know. we might shake the hand of all the people who took the biggest cuts and fixing the country.

if we do get around to fixing the country and we're not at war with them.

Originally Posted by martyh

speak for yourself Gary ,if your dumb enough to fall for that then that's your look out .I for one don't hate benefit claimants ,i hate SOME benefit claimants ,i hate the way SOME benefit claimants think they have a right to live off the state and i especially hate SOME benefit claimants that whinge when they get a pay rise .Life is not easy for benefit claimants ,it's not meant to be, but for some of us workers (that's the class of people below benefit claimants)life can be even harder and even more unjust

I read before that the figure of abuse is something like 3%. This is quite a small problem elevated into a big problem by some in government and in the press because they don't want to talk about the areas which do need reform. Pensions and Health Care are massive expenses....

Originally Posted by Damien

I read before that the figure of abuse is something like 3%. This is quite a small problem elevated into a big problem by some in government and in the press because they don't want to talk about the areas which do need reform. Pensions and Health Care are massive expenses....

As i have said before the abuse figures are just guesswork ,i suspect/hope they are getting lower but still suspect they are higher than currently being guessed .

Originally Posted by martyh

As i have said before the abuse figures are just guesswork ,i suspect/hope they are getting lower but still suspect they are higher than currently being guessed .

Well yes but policy should be made on the basis of actual data or knowledge, or at least informed estimates. It shouldn't be based on a alternative reality asserted by the media or by those in government who think such a reality would strengthen their case. The thing is we can make a case for anything otherwise.

[tweetiepooh]

While prices are rising don't forget that as a percentage of earnings food dropped a heck of a lot in recent times. (I don't have figures but vaguely remember something like 50% to 10%.) Food prices plummeted for a while now they are on the way up. This is partly due to fuel prices but also there are effects such as weather, using "food" for fuel, population growth. We have got used to very cheap, almost below cost food. We also got used to lots of spare cash for extras. Now we still want the extras so really notice food prices.

I do acknowledge that there are some who are severely affected. Maybe benefits need to be better targeted and paid in food (vouchers) or the like so recipients can't waste it as easily.

Separately was thinking today that we need a "back to work" benefit so that when people sign off to start work they aren't left starving until pay day. Maybe some form of interest free loan that can be taken back from wages (before tax??) over some extended period of time.

Originally Posted by Damien

Well yes but policy should be made on the basis of actual data or knowledge, or at least informed estimates. It shouldn't be based on a alternative reality asserted by the media or by those in government who think such a reality would strengthen their case. The thing is we can make a case for anything otherwise.

Alternatively the government could be looking at the figures for exposed benefit fraud and finally realised that in fact benefit fraud is endemic to the system and has been for years .For every 1 person caught there may be(and probably is) 4 or 5 that have not and that is just those that are comitting outright fraud eg working and claiming.The figures for people using the system legally but immorally are certainly far greater ,by that i mean people claiming they have an illness that stops them looking for work when they can actually work .

Originally Posted by martyh

Alternatively the government could be looking at the figures for exposed benefit fraud and finally realised that in fact benefit fraud is endemic to the system and has been for years .For every 1 person caught there may be(and probably is) 4 or 5 that have not and that is just those that are comitting outright fraud eg working and claiming.The figures for people using the system legally but immorally are certainly far greater ,by that i mean people claiming they have an illness that stops them looking for work when they can actually work .

Again though I would want to see evidence that supports this rather than speculation if we're going to hit people on benefits. We can't hit people on benefits, make such statements that a lot of them are using it fraudulently or immorally, and then never back it up. Where is the substance to these claims? How do we know this isn't just a ruse to cut benefits to those that need them and make the conversation about us vs them?

[Osem]

At present more than £5bn a year is lost in fraud and error. The government's shake-up of the benefits system is widely seen as the biggest change since the introduction of the welfare state.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-19659946

Here are the Governments figures that back up that 3% claim I made earlier:

http://statistics.dwp.gov.uk/asd/asd...12_revised.pdf

The estimate of total overpayments due to fraud and error across all benefits is £3.2bn;
this is 2.0% of the total benefit expenditure, which was £159.0bn in 2011/12.

However, please note that the net loss to DWP is less than the total overpayments,
since DWP and Local Authorities identify and recover around £780m of overpayments
each year

2% overall including fraud, error of the part of the claimant and/or the official.

 0.7%, or £1.1bn, of total benefit expenditure is overpaid due to fraud;
 0.8%, or £1.3bn, of total benefit expenditure is overpaid due to customer error;
 0.5%, or £0.8bn, of total benefit expenditure is overpaid due to official error.

Originally Posted by Damien

Again though I would want to see evidence that supports this rather than speculation if we're going to hit people on benefits. We can't hit people on benefits, make such statements that a lot of them are using it fraudulently or immorally, and then never back it up. Where is the substance to these claims? How do we know this isn't just a ruse to cut benefits to those that need them and make the conversation about us vs them?

I would say that the evidence is staring us in the face ,maybe not in the form of figures and numbers of people jailed but the fact that benefit fraud is ongoing and persistent which in itself says that people have the perception that the system is there as an alternative lifestyle rather than a safety net .I and probably others here know teenage girls who have babies to get benefits and housing because they can't get jobs either because they don't want to or because of poor education ,it's a crackers system that invites fraud and misuse.

---------- Post added at 17:57 ---------- Previous post was at 17:31 ----------

Originally Posted by Damien

Here are the Governments figures that back up that 3% claim I made earlier:

http://statistics.dwp.gov.uk/asd/asd...12_revised.pdf



2% overall including fraud, error of the part of the claimant and/or the official.

It's still a lot of money but that isn't the only purpose of the welfare reforms .We have to get back to the idea that benefits are a last resort not a first call .I do however think that the government have not gone about a much needed change in the best way and in some respects have used a heavy handed approach .A change of perception in the system is what is needed not necessarily an enemy made of everyone on benefits

[Taf]

I.D.S. has already said that families on benefits should not receive more than a working family, and therefore a cap is to be imposed.

He has already moved the goalposts to include families with handicapped adults under the cap.

Next, I expect an announcement that families on benefits should also have to pay the same bills as working families, and therefore will have to pay rent and community charge (or it's replacement) at 100%. That might spark a bigger reaction....

Originally Posted by Taf

I.D.S. has already said that families on benefits should not receive more than a working family, and therefore a cap is to be imposed.

He has already moved the goalposts to include families with handicapped adults under the cap.

Next, I expect an announcement that families on benefits should also have to pay the same bills as working families, and therefore will have to pay rent and community charge (or it's replacement) at 100%. That might spark a bigger reaction....

What i can't understand is why they can't just have JS claimants having the 1% cap .While i am very vocal about benefits and sometimes come across as unsympathetic i do appreciate that in some cases living on benefits is a forced lifestyle for some and should not be subject to a cap ,some benefits must rise with inflation

Originally Posted by martyh

At least benefit claimants are getting a rise ,they get a pay rise year in year out ,they are the only section of society guaranteed more money ,they can think themselves lucky in that respect .

---------- Post added at 14:31 ---------- Previous post was at 14:26 ----------



Jessops are struggling because the market has changed .People don't buy cameras like they used to ,just about every phone in existence has a camera on it now and most people are quite satisfied with that because it is easier .Don't forget that Kodak had the same problem it's nothing to do with cutbacks or less money ,the market has disappeared it is as simple as that

yeah the poorest people struggling as it is has a rise under inflation meaning the minimum amount they need to live actually goes less far? really lucky aint they? Those who are really poor get poorer those that are not poor shop at Asda instead of Waitrose.

Some of you workers seem to think everyone on the dole is flush the reality really is quite different

---------- Post added at 19:05 ---------- Previous post was at 19:03 ----------

Originally Posted by martyh

I would say that the evidence is staring us in the face ,maybe not in the form of figures and numbers of people jailed but the fact that benefit fraud is ongoing and persistent which in itself says that people have the perception that the system is there as an alternative lifestyle rather than a safety net .I and probably others here know teenage girls who have babies to get benefits and housing because they can't get jobs either because they don't want to or because of poor education ,it's a crackers system that invites fraud and misuse.

---------- Post added at 17:57 ---------- Previous post was at 17:31 ----------



It's still a lot of money but that isn't the only purpose of the welfare reforms .We have to get back to the idea that benefits are a last resort not a first call .I do however think that the government have not gone about a much needed change in the best way and in some respects have used a heavy handed approach .A change of perception in the system is what is needed not necessarily an enemy made of everyone on benefits

yeah man lets keep on doing what el gov want lets focus on the poor and sick and leave the rich tax avoiders alone its sweet that the spin works for them.

---------- Post added at 19:09 ---------- Previous post was at 19:05 ----------

Originally Posted by martyh

What i can't understand is why they can't just have JS claimants having the 1% cap .While i am very vocal about benefits and sometimes come across as unsympathetic i do appreciate that in some cases living on benefits is a forced lifestyle for some and should not be subject to a cap ,some benefits must rise with inflation

some cases? did you not see the figures posted somewhere recently?


I will refresh. End of last year 2.52 million unemployed 476000 ( or similar figure its less than 500 000 ) ope jobs . 2 million people without a cat in hells chance of getting a job and you say a few are forced to live on JS. Please step into the real world because seriously you do not have clue about the reality of the situation. Also the figures are getting worse due to pretty much everyone moving from incap to esa having to end up signing on

Wake up and smell the coffee or please feel free to find 2 million jobs out of nowhere then your statement may be correct

---------- Post added at 19:10 ---------- Previous post was at 19:09 ----------

Originally Posted by Taf

I.D.S. has already said that families on benefits should not receive more than a working family, and therefore a cap is to be imposed.

He has already moved the goalposts to include families with handicapped adults under the cap.

Next, I expect an announcement that families on benefits should also have to pay the same bills as working families, and therefore will have to pay rent and community charge (or it's replacement) at 100%. That might spark a bigger reaction....

One council in Birmingham have already said the unemployed have to pay £200 towards CT

Originally Posted by tizmeinnit

yeah the poorest people struggling as it is has a rise under inflation meaning the minimum amount they need to live actually goes less far? really lucky aint they? Those who are really poor get poorer those that are not poor shop at Asda instead of Waitrose.

Some of you workers seem to think everyone on the dole is flush the reality really is quite different

For "us workers" having a guaranteed source of income that is guaranteed to rise is considered flush ,as opposed to working 12 hrs a day with no pay rise for years and the risk of losing your job and security at a moments notice

yeah man lets keep on doing what el gov want lets focus on the poor and sick and leave the rich tax avoiders alone its sweet that the spin works for them.

no idea what that is meant to mean



some cases? did you not see the figures posted somewhere recently?

I will refresh. End of last year 2.52 million unemployed 476000 ( or similar figure its less than 500 000 ) ope jobs . 2 million people without a cat in hells chance of getting a job and you say a few are forced to live on JS. Please step into the real world because seriously you do not have clue about the reality of the situation. Also the figures are getting worse due to pretty much everyone moving from incap to esa having to end up signing on

Wake up and smell the coffee or please feel free to find 2 million jobs out of nowhere then your statement may be correct

There is no justification for JS levels to rise faster than wages ,none whatsoever

[georgepomone]

Plus, today I heard on the news that Members of Parliament have decided they need a pay rise. They have been ripping into our society telling us how we have to cut back and we are all in this together, except them. They are saying they need £80000 a year. We must get rid of these clowns as soon as possible.